Essentials Cleric

[UngeheuerLich]

but this is more a problem with your players than anything else... it shouldn´t be hard to remember 3 different phrases...

 

[Crazy_Dragon]

Economically this is a brilliant idea, a product that can bring in new people ($$$) and will likely be bought by a fair number of current people ($$)

 

[Pour]

I disagree. The fiddly bits are the intricate interactions between Immediate Interrupt and its difference from Opportunity Attack and Immediate Reaction, etc etc etc. None of that is going away. How many times have I had to try to explain to someone that their Opportunity Action doesn't benefit from their bonus to Opportunity Attack rolls? How many 12 yr olds are going to successfully track marks, conditions, and effects by themselves in actual play?

Now, I don't disagree that SOME of that can be mitigated by ditching most powers that apply effects that need tracking, getting rid of niggling subtleties of mechanics of classes like CC and CS on fighters, etc. That will HELP, but the fundamental complexity is in the application of the (already stated not to be changing) core of the rules.

I have spent a good bit of time over the last 2 years answering questions on the WotC 4e Q&A boards. A lot of the same questions come up here too, just with less frequency. There is an unofficial sticky FAQ/quick answer thread there that is up to something like 269 PAGES, plus the Shaman SC FAQ that is 17 page and the Ready an Action FAQ that is 15 pages and another one that I forget the title of that is 112 PAGES. I have literally cranked up a post count there of over 4,000 posts in a year and I'd say a good solid 75% is answering questions. Heck I've slacked off in the last 6 months, so I was answering between 20 and 30 rules inquiries a DAY solid for half a year.

Now a lot of those were on questions about class features and powers that in theory might largely go away in a cleaner class design, but a LOT of them are the same basic questions week after week asking how interrupts work, how CC and CS works, how does Stealth work (big one), etc etc etc. None of those are going to get much clearer with Essentials. Sure, they may be able to clear up the language some, but without breaking compatibility there's only so much you can do. They can issue a whole slew of errata to try to keep the two versions in sync but the fundamental combat mechanics are simply not that easy for people to grasp that aren't already pretty conversant with RPGs and wargames.

So I still have to wonder just how much more accessible you CAN make 4e. Some, certainly, but enough to pull in tons of newbies (especially kids)? I'm not convinced its POSSIBLE let alone that Essentials will do it. BECMI was a pretty darn simple game, even for its time, and kids could easily play it. 4e Essentials is no BECMI, not by an order of magnitude of complexity.

I'm hoping the Red Box has a solid equivalent to the DMG, more than even simplified classes or cleaned-up rules. While there are multiple snags and plenty of places to get confused and even frustrated, the life and expansion of the hobby doesn't fall on the player in my mind, but the DM. The DM is the conduit through which the game is experienced. His or her accessibility equates to the game's accessibility.

A savvy DM, one conscious of pacing and who learns when to follow the rules to a T and when to lay off and allow things to happen, will make or break a first timer's experience. The DMG must convey that DMs should improvise and expand and make things their own for the sake of fun. It should be encouraging, and hardly a rulebook at all... I guess more of a guide book, emphasis on the DMG.

Admittedly, I never DMed 12 year olds, but I have DMed 17-18 year olds, sophomores, juniors and seniors in high school. Between video games, sports and all their other time-eaters, to have them consistently want to game, weekly even, isn't because of the clarity of the rules (though of course they help) or the ease of the classes or their understanding of attacks of opportunity. It's in how the game is run and the freedom they are given.

I'm not sure how much a book can impart in regards to DMing ability, but there are certain key points that should be addressed. And if the Red Box as a whole does it's job, which is sparking the imagination, hooking the DM or convincing another player to take up DMing and a group, then that first-timer will make it a point to get better.

 

[PeelSeel2]

I think this could be the beginning of the 4th renaissance for D&D, the first in the late 70's, the second in the early 90's, the third in the early 00's, and the fourth starting late 00.

I hope that the world is starting to crave some other disconnect than video games. RPG's, boardgames, and wargames offer the personal social touch that has been lacking in the last ~10 years. Essentials could be (and will be if I am right) the product that is in the right time, at the right place in history to help the tide, and at the same time will become legendary like 1e and Moldvay/Cook(or Mentzer) D&D to future gamers.

D&D needs another simple, easy to play, and easy to get into product. All 'starter sets' for ~15 years have blown. This one has the potential of not being sucky. Something I would actually buy my kids or other kids.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm hoping the Red Box has a solid equivalent to the DMG, more than even simplified classes or cleaned-up rules. While there are multiple snags and plenty of places to get confused and even frustrated, the life and expansion of the hobby doesn't fall on the player in my mind, but the DM. The DM is the conduit through which the game is experienced. His or her accessibility equates to the game's accessibility.

A savvy DM, one conscious of pacing and who learns when to follow the rules to a T and when to lay off and allow things to happen, will make or break a first timer's experience. The DMG must convey that DMs should improvise and expand and make things their own for the sake of fun. It should be encouraging, and hardly a rulebook at all... I guess more of a guide book, emphasis on the DMG.

Admittedly, I never DMed 12 year olds, but I have DMed 17-18 year olds, sophomores, juniors and seniors in high school. Between video games, sports and all their other time-eaters, to have them consistently want to game, weekly even, isn't because of the clarity of the rules (though of course they help) or the ease of the classes or their understanding of attacks of opportunity. It's in how the game is run and the freedom they are given.

I'm not sure how much a book can impart in regards to DMing ability, but there are certain key points that should be addressed. And if the Red Box as a whole does it's job, which is sparking the imagination, hooking the DM or convincing another player to take up DMing and a group, then that first-timer will make it a point to get better.

Yes, but the key is that if a group of young people are going to play amongst themselves, that is assuming they don't have an older player to DM, then they will have to COMPREHEND all of these subtleties of the rules. Now, there are certainly teenagers that are as capable as anyone of doing that (no doubt some are on this forum) but still when you are starting out cold simpler is better. My point is that no matter how simple the PCs are the core rules themselves are NOT simple.

I mean really, just examine the endless debates that go on in this very forum about the 4e rules. How does Stealth work? How do immediate actions work? etc. Its not that hard to grasp in a general way but the 4e rules are not the easiest RPG rules to actually APPLY, in fact I'd say from long experience with a lot of systems they are quite the opposite. No doubt we can easily find ones that are trickier (Aftermath immediately springs to mind, lol). Still, they are FAR from the easiest and I'd not hand any version of 4e to a bunch of 12-14 yr olds and expect them to really figure it out. I'd much sooner hand them my Basic books.

I don't think attempting to make 4e into Basic is going to work all that well. I think a lot of kids are going to look at it scratch their heads, fiddle with it a bit and go on to other things.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

If everything in the Essentials is compatible with the previous bunch of PHB classes. Then I wonder how Hybrid classes using the Essentials build might work...

They'd better have rules for Hybrids in the Essentials series somewhere, even if it's the Rules Compendium, because that's something that probably would appeal to "returning players" who fondly remember their multi-classed characters.

 

[DracoSuave]

Too bad you aren't a paying member, and we could bet the right to pick the other's avatar, for say a month or two

I have it on good authority you don't need to pay to do that.

I'm sort of an expert in the field.

 

[Pour]

Yes, but the key is that if a group of young people are going to play amongst themselves, that is assuming they don't have an older player to DM, then they will have to COMPREHEND all of these subtleties of the rules. Now, there are certainly teenagers that are as capable as anyone of doing that (no doubt some are on this forum) but still when you are starting out cold simpler is better. My point is that no matter how simple the PCs are the core rules themselves are NOT simple.

I mean really, just examine the endless debates that go on in this very forum about the 4e rules. How does Stealth work? How do immediate actions work? etc. Its not that hard to grasp in a general way but the 4e rules are not the easiest RPG rules to actually APPLY, in fact I'd say from long experience with a lot of systems they are quite the opposite. No doubt we can easily find ones that are trickier (Aftermath immediately springs to mind, lol). Still, they are FAR from the easiest and I'd not hand any version of 4e to a bunch of 12-14 yr olds and expect them to really figure it out. I'd much sooner hand them my Basic books.

I don't think attempting to make 4e into Basic is going to work all that well. I think a lot of kids are going to look at it scratch their heads, fiddle with it a bit and go on to other things.

I don't disagree with you on comprehending the rules to play, but there is a point where all of us comprehend the rules enough to play.

Despite all the debate and discussion on how Stealth works, immediate actions and so on, all of us still manage to run or play in games whether or not we fully get the tinier cogs. And I think that's largely due to our understanding of the larger tropes of D&D, a group of characters on some sort of adventure, with the expectation of fighting monsters, overcoming skill challenges, gaining treasure and eventually facing some sort of ultimate villain/instance for a resolution they themselves had a hand in. Then they have the added joy of leveling up and doing it all again, in so many variations (and that is being extremely general, I know). When we don't understand a rule along the way, we improvise, we play it as fairly as we can, and then we move on. Later, many of us will research what we didn't get, and dedicated players as well. This generation of 12 - 14 year old players know exactly how to find answers on sites like ENWorld.

Going back to my earlier post, I hope the Red Box's DMG stresses the goal of D&D is to play the game and have fun and use what you can out of the finer rules. I worry a new player opening a box is going to assume they must memorize everything in order to play. It's just not true, from my experience, and a daunting task for anyone trying something for the first time. I'm not dancing around the issue, I know that they will need to understand the concept of rolling the d20 and adding modifiers, of defenses and other concepts, but that's well within the grasp of all 6th graders.

It's really in how you present things. And I think special care should be given toward the new DM. But it can be successful. I think the average kid can manage it, with the proper encouragement and guidance.

 

[mkill]

Then I wonder how Hybrid classes using the Essentials build might work...

They'd better have rules for Hybrids in the Essentials series somewhere, even if it's the Rules Compendium, because that's something that probably would appeal to "returning players" who fondly remember their multi-classed characters.

I hope they don't waste even a page on that. The hybrid rules represent exactly that kind of fiddly bit that beginners (and returning players with wife, kids and a full-time job) shouldn't have to deal with. I wouldn't mind a dragon article some time later that updates the hybrid rules for essentials, but for the moment, please leave it out.

 

[tbarrie]

I disagree. The fiddly bits are the intricate interactions between Immediate Interrupt and its difference from Opportunity Attack and Immediate Reaction, etc etc etc. None of that is going away.

What's your basis for that conclusion? Have they revealed an Essentials power or class feature that says it's an Immediate Interrupt or Reaction? Because it seems entirely possible that no Essentials build will use Immediates at all, in which case poof, that particular bit of fiddliness goes away.