Essentials' "Give Backs"

[Scribble]

Which is why I don't agree that it works for dailies at all.

I can't think of a physical action so strenuous someone could do it only once per day that wouldn't hospitalize them; there's no sequence of maneuvers so complex that you could do it only once per day without it's limit being dependent on being witnessed by all potential targets...

...so a martial daily simply seems like nonsense to me.

This to me just sounds like a debate between what's realistic, and what's "realistic."




In the D&D universe, just like magic works, lizards can fly, and people can take max damage ax hits without dying... Some combat maneuvers are so draining they can only be performed once per day.

It just doesn't bother me.

That said- I'm glad the game is adding options for those that it does bother.

 

[Jhaelen]

I can't think of a physical action so strenuous someone could do it only once per day that wouldn't hospitalize them; there's no sequence of maneuvers so complex that you could do it only once per day without it's limit being dependent on being witnessed by all potential targets...

...so a martial daily simply seems like nonsense to me.

Yup, and I can, thus it doesn't seem like nonsense to me

If someone can accept that a magic user is only capable of casting certain spells once a day, I cannot fathom why it's suddenly nonsense if we're looking at a martial maneuver that is well beyond the capabilities of mundane warriors.

 

[Nichwee]

Which is why I don't agree that it works for dailies at all.

I can't think of a physical action so strenuous someone could do it only once per day that wouldn't hospitalize them; there's no sequence of maneuvers so complex that you could do it only once per day without it's limit being dependent on being witnessed by all potential targets...

...so a martial daily simply seems like nonsense to me.

It depends, if it is a move that requires: Appropriate set-up, strong effort and a bit of luck - then it is the sort of thing that might well work once/day on average. It might well be that it would otherwise descend into a different effect cos not all the stars aligned right.

For example, a Whirlwind Daily, once used, could be attempted again but may fall short a bit - and instead have the effects of a particular Enc or At-Will instead (as the crunch effect of "trying" the same Daily twice IC by fluff, but OOC just picking a different power). This could also be what happened earlier in the day when you used an Enc power - IC you tried the Daily, but as the situation wasn't quite right (including your addrenalin levels) it fell a bit short and produced the Enc effect instead.


Is the idea of only being able to try something once/day odd for Martial stuff? Yes.
Is the idea of it only working out properly once/day odd? Not really - it is just a hardcoded version of probabity averaging out.

 

[Scribble]

In the end it feels like a familiar old debate involving the magic using classes opening up to the martial classes..

I can remember having a ton of debates with players who just couldn't understand how a wizard could only cast a set number of spells each day...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yup, and I can...

Care to share? If not, rest assured I'd probably disagree with you.

Is the idea of only being able to try something once/day odd for Martial stuff? Yes.
Is the idea of it only working out properly once/day odd? Not really - it is just a hardcoded version of probabity averaging out.

My response is to let the dice decide how often per day it works- they do a fine job of determining the outcomes of statistical probabilities in the rest of the game.

Ultimately, you can't convince me of a reason for shoehorning daily powers into martial classes, if for no other reason than we can see exemplars of perfectly balanced 4Ed classes that don't have powers of each kind- psionics- so we know that a class design with at-wills and encounters only is perfectly possible.

And to some, at least, more sensible.

 

[Festivus]

Care to share? If not, rest assured I'd probably disagree with you.



My response is to let the dice decide how often per day it works- they do a fine job of determining the outcomes of statistical probabilities in the rest of the game.

Ultimately, you can't convince me of a reason for shoehorning daily powers into martial classes, if for no other reason than we can see exemplars of perfectly balanced 4Ed classes that don't have powers of each kind- psionics- so we know that a class design with at-wills and encounters only is perfectly possible.

And to some, at least, more sensible.

Aren't 4E Psionics the ones with At-Wills and dailies? The power point mechanic overcharging at-wills to pump them up but they still have daily powers.

With any of this, DMs are still free to toss rules and powers out. Curious, are people afraid to modify the game these days as compared to 1E where pretty much everyone houseruled?

 

[RLBURNSIDE]

daily feats

Care to share? If not, rest assured I'd probably disagree with you.

Have you ever lifted a one-ton piano up three flights of stairs? After this, you are DONE! for the day. Try running an hour at your max speed, to save your life. Then do it again, and again, and again. Most people can't, but with training sure. A trained piano mover does it all the time. Doesn't mean it isn't realistic that most people can't do at-will enormous feats of super-human strength, agility, or weapon prowess. Imagine a daily stance such as "Triathlon's Endurance". Have you ever tried running two triathlons, back to back? I haven't, and for good reason. Most people would end up with permanent injuries if they push themselves this hard. For the others, well, Dnd isn't an accurate simulation.

Ironically, despite me saying this, they have been moving a lot of stances to at-will stances in Essentials, which makes Master's Blades seem wicked good now. Even better than before.

Imagine Legolas doing his sliding down the oliphaunt theatrics every second. It seems that way in the movies, but for theatrical purposes, if something's overdone that's a good reason to cut it down a bit and make it a "daily". Nobody thinks spamming Attacks on the Run is a good idea. Well, the Scout might disagree. Anyway, dailies are fun---except when you miss!!

grrrr.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Aren't 4E Psionics the ones with At-Wills and dailies? The power point mechanic overcharging at-wills to pump them up but they still have daily powers.

Yes, and no encounter powers, proving that you can design classes for 4Ed that don't conform to the a/e/d class design and still work.

Martial classes without daily powers- instead having additional encounter powers that are designed to synergize with each other- would be no less effective and would feel more sensible.

(Again, to some of us.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Have you ever lifted a one-ton piano up three flights of stairs? After this, you are DONE! for the day.

The guys I know who moved pianos for Brook Mays Music would probably disagree with you.

But even so, that would probably be covered by my "hospitalized" caveat...AND, if as you assert, you'd be done for the day, that is not reflected in the daily power structure, which does not demand rest immediately subsequent. Indeed, you could use your daily power first, and continue adventuring as if nothing happened. You don't even have to burn a second wind.

Try running an hour at your max speed, to save your life. Then do it again, and again, and again. Most people can't, but with training sure. A trained piano mover does it all the time.

Nobody runs max speed for an hour. They do it in short bursts. Marathoners set a running pace far below what they can sprint at.

Doesn't mean it isn't realistic that most people can't do at-will enormous feats of super-human strength, agility, or weapon prowess. Imagine a daily stance such as "Triathlon's Endurance". Have you ever tried running two triathlons, back to back? I haven't, and for good reason. Most people would end up with permanent injuries if they push themselves this hard.

That's called an ironman competition, and is again captured by my caveat.

Again, you're comparing an event involving hours of exertion to a 6-second burst of action. That is apples & oranges.

 

[CovertOps]

I kind of wish they had used a mechanic like a Daily costs 1 Healing Surge to use. THAT would make sense for ALL classes and wouldn't offend the sensibilities of the "martial daily haters". Make it physically taxing to use any daily AND you can use it again if you want. As a DM, wearing down the party gets a lot easier if they're spending their healing surges and it makes it into a real decision about if the daily is worth that HS or not.