D&D 4E Essentials, questions from someone trying out 4e again

[Psikus]

unless it came out very recently, no errata on mm1 only the essentials versions of some of the monsters

Actually, MM1 errata has been coming out, a few monsters at a time, for the last seven months. I strongly recommend these articles, since they cover many iconic monsters, and even include some brand new background information to boot!

 

[Layander]

One more thing I would like to ask here, as I talk to my group about trying it out again, one player is concerned at the lack of professional skills we had in other games, any ways to keep non combat skills in the game?

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

One more thing I would like to ask here, as I talk to my group about trying it out again, one player is concerned at the lack of professional skills we had in other games, any ways to keep non combat skills in the game?

What do you need them for? That is what Roleplaying is for.

If they feel they have to roll something then make up a DC for them and have them roll with whatever bonus you feel they need.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What do you need them for? That is what Roleplaying is for.

Because, to state what has been stated before here and elsewhere, ad nauseam:

1) lots of people like them

2) it opens up the game by helping people who can't or have difficulty roleplaying certain skills play PCs who do have those skills.

3) including them puts them on the same mechanical- thus balance and importance- level as combat skills (which, FWIW, you could ALSO roleplay). This opens up the game further for a wider array of non-combat adventures.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One more thing I would like to ask here, as I talk to my group about trying it out again, one player is concerned at the lack of professional skills we had in other games, any ways to keep non combat skills in the game?

PHB2 provided backgrounds. They are a fairly loosely designed rule. Basically you pick some background elements for different categories, so you can pick a 'birth', 'profession', 'geography', etc element (there are 100's of these, in practice just make up what you like). Each one lists 1 or 2 skills or sometimes a language or in rare cases some setting specific ones list some other minor benefit. Your character either gets +2 to that skill, can add that skill to the list his class allows training in at 1st level, or gets the language specified. You only get to take a benefit from one of your background elements.

If the PC finds himself in a situation where his background is specifically relevant to a skill check, then he can generally add +2 to the check. So you can say "background: profession - artisan (blacksmith)" and you could say take a +2 to Endurance or Athletics (or maybe some other skill, really all you need to do is justify it as much as the DM cares about). Now if you happen to run into a situation where success relates to blacksmithing in some way you can add a +2 to whatever the skill check is. Your character is now a blacksmith, presumably he can make ordinary items out of iron without trouble if he has the equipment required on hand.

This works fine and does pretty much everything the d20 CPP skills did mechanically (IE not much). What it doesn't do is make you give up a valuable feat slot or adventuring skill to pick up some ability that is unlikely to be used much. It is just as official and mechanical as it was in any other edition.

 

[Quickleaf]

One more thing I would like to ask here, as I talk to my group about trying it out again, one player is concerned at the lack of professional skills we had in other games, any ways to keep non combat skills in the game?

Before you come up with something, do you know what sort of character they want?

For example, if they want to play a bard and miss the perform skill, Heroes of the Feywild presents the skald sub-class which gains skill like abilities which do many of the things Perform could do.

Or if they want to be a craftsperson, there are backgrounds from Scales of War AP which grant you the ability to do that without having to invest a feat.

However, if it's the actual Profession skill they're concerned about, there is no direct 4e comparison. You'd need to house rule something or just port that skill over from 3e.

 

[Layander]

He is talking about playing a jeweler and creating a trading guild he runs.

 

[Saracenus]

He is talking about playing a jeweler and creating a trading guild he runs.

And this begs the question, why play D&D? Harnmaster from Columbia Games would better suit this kind of play (a skill based character system that goes hardcore simulation).

I am sure there are a bevy of other RPGs that can do what he wants better.

In 4e being a jeweler isn't the main focus. If he really wants to craft jewelery and run a guild during his downtime as an adventurer, then have him take a background profession and use a skill that is appropriate to the task at hand.

Say that he is commissioned to make a necklace with rare stones that are being held by a greedy gnome.

He can use streetwise to find out that the gnome has the stones. Then it could be a straight up diplomacy roll to talk him into selling the stones or it could become a skill challenge (think heist movie or con).

Once the stones have been acquired then assume that he is skilled enough to make the necklace, but you could throw in a complication or the player could suggest a skill to make it (say use thievery for fine detail work, dungeoneering to make the best cut, or arcana if the stone were from the elemental chaos).

As there are "social" elements to this, I would give bonuses for interesting role-playing choices or creative solutions that go outside the box I am constructing.

That is how I might handle it. If the player needs specific crafting rules, then 3e or a skill based system is going to better meet his needs.

My two coppers,

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And this begs the question, why play D&D? Harnmaster from Columbia Games would better suit this kind of play (a skill based character system that goes hardcore simulation).

I am sure there are a bevy of other RPGs that can do what he wants better.

Undoubtedly so...but perhaps D&D is the game that he and/or his group prefers. Perhaps that is what is easily available. Or maybe they're disinclined to learn other games for some reason.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

And this begs the question, why play D&D? Harnmaster from Columbia Games would better suit this kind of play (a skill based character system that goes hardcore simulation).

Why not focus on what Laylander is looking for? He would like to see options for doing this in D&D 4. Maybe it's not the best system to do it, but sending him to a different system doesn't seem to be answering the question: "How can I do this with D&D 4?"

One more thing I would like to ask here, as I talk to my group about trying it out again, one player is concerned at the lack of professional skills we had in other games, any ways to keep non combat skills in the game?

Via house rules, there are. Via supplements or DDI articles - I don't think so.

Here is my take (copy & pasted from somewhere else I posted it, adjust to taste or throw into garbage as you like )


Non-Adventuring Skills
Non-Adventuring skills are skills not generally used by regular adventurers, but are used in the life of the common folk in villages and cities.

These skills work similar in regards to skill checks and skill challenge as normal skills, but are not learned during adventuring.

Upon character creation, a character may pick two skills that represent his upbringing and training before he became an adventurer.

Perform [Charisma] Various Subskills like Drums, Lute, Oratory, Singing)
Craft [Intelligence] (Various Subskills, like Armorsmithing, Bowmaking, Basketweaving, )
Profession [Wisdom] (Various Subskills like Farmer, Pharmacist)

You treat these skills as trained (a +5 modifier to the skill). These skills are not learned normally. During downtime, you may choose to either use these skills to earn additional money, or to train your non-adventuring skills.

Training Non-Adventuring Skills
To gain a new skill, or to gain Skill Focus (additional +3 modifier to the skill) in a trained non-adventuring skill skill, you must train.
This works similar to a skill challenge. Each check represents one week of training, and you must succeed 4 times before gaining 3 failures. If you gain 3 failures, you lose all previous successes and failures and must start again.

A trainer is useful to improve your skill. Finding and paying the appropriate trainer costs you money worth equal to 1/20th of a magical item of your level per week. If you have a trainer, the DC for all skill checks is easy. If you do not have a trainer, use the moderate DCs instead. If you succeed on a Hard check, you may roll a second check. A failure does not count towards the challenge, but a success negates a previously made failure, or, if no such failure occured or is remaining, grants an additional success.

Earning Money during downtime
To earn money, you must make skill Check appropriate for your level. For each week of downtime, you gain money depending on the DC you beat.
Easy DC: worth equivalant to 1/30th of a magical item of your level.
Moderate DC: worth 1/20th of a magical item of your level.
High DC: worth 1/10th of a magical item of your level.
Failure: You earn no money.

You must be in a settlement large enough to accomandate your level of skill, as otherwise you will not find anyone that is able to pay you for your goods or services.
If it's insufficient for your level, use the highest level accomandated by the city instead for both DC and earnings.
Village (20-50): Up to Level 5
Town (51 to 500 inhabitants) or Fantastic Village (In the Underdark, Feywild or Shadowfell): Up to Level 10
City (501 to 2,500 inhabitants) or Fantastic Town: Up to Level 15
Metropolis (2,501+ inhabitants) or Fantastic City: Up to Level 20
Fantastic Metropolis (City of Brass, Sigil and similar examples): Up to Level 30

Using Non-Adventuring Skills
You may also use these skills in other situations then earning money.

Sometimes you may be allowed to use a non-adventuring skill in place of an adventuring skill. You may generally use this option only once between extended rests.

Perform
Given an appropriate situation, you may use Perform to impress other people, using Perform instead of Diplomacy. You may also use Perform to distract or seduce people, in place (or taking a similar effect as) Bluff, Stealth or Thievery, and help others on similar tasks.
For example, a character may use his Perform (Oratory) skill to distract a group of guards telling an entertaining story, while another character picks a lock or pick-pockets an item.
Rarely, a Perform check may be appropriate to replace a history or streetwise check (songs and poetry sometimes refer to historical or mythical figures as well as local individuals).

Profession
You may use your Profession skills in appropriate settings in place of a Diplomacy, Insight or Knowledge checks to interact with people with similar Professions, or where your Profession is particularly relevant.

Some Professsions might also be associated with crafting related tasks, and in this case, you may use Profession like Craft to create items (see below). For example, a Pharmacists may be able to create healing potions and poisons.

Craft
You can craft items, magical and non-magical as appropriate to the Craft skill (Bowmaking for a bow or an arrow, a tailor for a magical cloth armor, and so on). When you actively craft specific items, you do not need to accomandate the limitations of your settlement, as you are not actively trying to sell your goods.

Crafting Non-Magical Items
You may craft non-magical items as appropriate to your Craft skill. This requires raw materials equal to 1/5th their cost, and you must generate a worth of your work equal to the worth of the item.

Crafting Magical Items
You may also craft magical items that fit your Craft skill, even if you do not have the Ritual Caster feat and the Enchant Magic Item or Brew Potion Ritual. This requires particularly potent magical components, and possibly magically infused tools. Crafting magical items in this manner is a very ardeous and challenging process, far more difficult and time-consuming than using the appropriate ritual. But a master artisan can achieve items of worth and power that a normal ritual can achieve.

Each month of work allows you to make one check against a moderate DC and requires magical components equal to 1/15th of the items value. For consumable items, each check requires only one day of work. If a check result beats even a hard DC, you can roll a second time, a failure on the second check does not count as a failure towards the crafting challenge, while a success can be used to negate a previous failure, or, if no such failure has occured yet, gain another success.
To create a common magical item, you must succeed 6 checks before 3 failures, to craft a uncommon item, you must succeed 8 checks before 3 failures. To create a a very rare item, you must succeed 12 checks before 3 failures. If you accrue the 3 failures before the required successes, you must start again, losing all previous successes, and losing half of the material components used so far in the process.
Magic item crafting is a fickle and particular process - If you fail making a uncommon item, you may not try again until you have gained a level or improved your training in the skill. If you fail making a rare item, you may never try to create the item again in this manner.

Crafting Groups
Regardless of whether you create a magical or a non-magical item, a group of characters may cooperate to craft items. For magical item crafting, you need the materials for each character and week. If the group fails crafting a magical item, the restricitions on retrying apply to each member of the group.