Estimating the value of the core feats?

[harpy]

One of the problems with the "system mastery" that was built into 3.0/3.5 was that you have to spend a lot of time separating the wheat from the chaff in the system. That part can actually be enjoyable for those who want to analyze the system. However after you've figured out what is worth taking and what isn't, all that chaff remains to clog up the page as you reference the books.

I'm trying to set a value to the feats in the core rules, going from a range of 1-20. In general the idea is that 20 is for the "no brainer" feats, which for whatever reason, are the potent feats which produce optimized results. When I went below that threshold then it became an evaluation of several different factors, such as:

- Is this feat something that will get used often?
- Is the bonus truly worth its value in comparison to the no-brainer feats.
- Is this feat part of a chain, which while it can be optimized, produces a result that isn't as potent or efficient as another build strategy? Such as the difference between Two-handed fighting and Two-weapon fighting.

This is all a shot in the dark for me. I'm interested in hearing how others would rate various feats and why.

Combat Feats [general feats]

Blind-Fight 10
Combat Expertise 20
Improved Disarm 20
Improved Feint 20
Improved Trip 20
Whirlwind Attack 20
Combat Reflexes 15
Dodge 10
Mobility 15
Spring Attack 20
Improved Critical 20
Improved Initiative 15
Improved Unarmed Strike 20
Deflect Arrows 10
Snatch Arrows10
Improved Grapple 20
Stunning Fist 20
Mounted Combat 10
Mounted Archery 10
Ride-By Attack 15
Spirited Charge 15
Trample 15
Point Blank Shot 20
Far Shot 10
Precise Shot 20
Improved Precise Shot 15
Rapid Shot 20
Manyshot 20
Shot On The Run 20
Power Attack 20
Cleave 15
Great Cleave 20
Improved Bull Rush 20
Improved Overrun 20
Improved Sunder 20
Quick Draw 5
Rapid Reload 10
Improved Shield Bash 15
Two-Weapon Fighting 20
Two-Weapon Defense 12
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 20
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting 20
Weapon Finesse 15
Weapon Focus 20
Weapon Specialization 20
Greater Weapon Focus 20
Greater Weapon Specialization 20


Item Creation Feats

Brew Potion 20
Craft Magic Arms And Armor 20
Craft Rod 20
Craft Staff 20
Craft Wand 20
Craft Wondrous Item 20
Forge Ring 20
Scribe Scroll 20

Metamagic Feats

Empower Spell 20
Enlarge Spell 20
Extend Spell 20
Heighten Spell 20
Maximize Spell 20
Quicken Spell 20
Silent Spell 20
Still Spell 20
Widen Spell 20

Skill Feats [general feats]

Acrobatic 8
Agile 8
Alertness 8
Animal Affinity 8
Athletic 8
Deceitful 8
Deft Hands 8
Diligent 8
Investigator 8
Magical Aptitude 8
Negotiator 8
Nimble Fingers 8
Persuasive 8
Self-Sufficient 8
Skill Focus 8
Stealthy 8


Saving Throw Feats [general feats]

Great Fortitude 6
Iron Will 6
Lightning Reflexes 6


Proficiency Feats [general feats]

Armor Proficiency (Light) 2
Armor Proficiency (Medium) 2
Armor Proficiency (Heavy) 2
Exotic Weapon Proficiency 10
Martial Weapon Proficiency 6
Simple Weapon Proficiency 1
Shield Proficiency 2
Tower Shield Proficiency1


Spellcasting Feats [general feats]

Combat Casting 6
Eschew Materials 10
Improved Counterspell 10
Natural Spell 20
Spell Focus 10
Greater Spell Focus 12
Augment Summoning 20
Spell Mastery 5
Spell Penetration 15
Greater Spell Penetration 15


Turning Feats [general feats]

Extra Turning 20
Improved Turning 20


Perseverance Feats [general feats]

Endurance 10
Diehard 15
Toughness 10

Miscellaneous Feats [general feats]

Leadership 20
Run 10
Track 10
Improved Familiar 10

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

The Netbook of Feats has ranked each SRD feat, as well as zillions of others, on a scale of 0-5 according to several criteria. Though some folks take it a grain of salt, it's a project that's been around for years and might be useful for you.

 

[Runestar]

Some thoughts and observations:

It is hard to assign a hard score to them, since even the crappiest feat may find use in a specialized build (eg: combat reflexes really only shines when used in a build revolving around AoOs).

I personally find whirlwind pretty crappy, due to its steep requirements and impracticality. You are usually better off concentrating all your attacks on a single foe to take it down ASAP, rather than spread them out amongst multiple enemies (and that is assuming they actually stand close enough to let you target them all). Rating-1

Dodge is another stinker, taken only because it is a prereq for some other useful feats such as spring attack. Rating-1

Improved crit is heavily dependent on how readily you can access keen. For a fighter who is practically swimming in feats, go ahead. For other classes who are more feat starved, I would hold off on it and try to get the keen property.

IUS - no idea why I would ever take this. Rating-1

Stunning fist - too steep requirements to be useful to anyone but a monk, who gets it as a bonus feat anyways. Rating-1

Cleave is too situational, and great cleave is practically useless, I don't see how you can ever get into a scenario to benefit from multiple cleaves each round. Cleave - 7-8, GC - 2-3

Weapon spec feats - can see myself taking weapon spec just for the melee weapon mastery feat, but otherwise, one of the biggest traps in dnd history. Rating-1 for all of them.

TWFing feat tree - useful in the hands of a build who can access a bonus source of damage per hit (eg: rogues, rangers), suboptimal to fighters. Rating-10 or 1

Skill feats - generally 1 for all of them, since you can usually find something better to do with your limited allotment of feats.

Spellcasting feats:

Combat casting - skill focus: concentration does a better job. Rating-1

Eschew materials - 1 (unless you constantly find yourself with a spell component pouch).

Improved counterspell - 1 (since counterspelling sucks in general). Maybe 6 if you are going for a dedicated counterspelling build, but you are still trading a higher lv spell for a lower lv one.

Spell mastery - Rating-1, but it is a prereq for some very useful feats.

Turning feats - Rating-1, since turning sucks in general, unless your DM allows DMM.

Perseverance Feats - Rating-1 (see no reason to waste my time with them).

Metamagic feats - still/silent/heighten too situational. Slightly more useful to a wizard, except still, which doesn't work (ie: a sorc needs a full action to cast a stilled spell, but being grappled prevents you from taking full-round actions). Maximize is mathematically inferior to empower for its slot cost.

 

[Starbuck_II]

S

Turning feats - Rating-1, since turning sucks in general, unless your DM allows DMM.

What about DSP (Divine Spell Power)? Turn attempt to raise caster level from +1 to +4? I think that makes turning (exta turning useful) since more caster is always liked.
More likely for DM to allow DSP than DMM.

But otherwise I agree with most of your values.
I'm surprised WW is rated so highly by OP.

 

[lottrbacchus]

If your DM doesn't mind having fights with lots of cannon fodder in front of the BBEG, Great Cleave is very rewarding (and see the pc game Temple of Elemental Evil for this being 'great')

 

[irdeggman]

The problem with such a generic rating system is that is very campaign specific.

If you are in a game that emphasizes city encounters - any mounted feat (or ranged attacks ones for that matter) are pretty much towards the useless side.

If you are in a game that emphasizes skill use (I am currenlty in one) - the combat feats are likewise leaning towards the useless side while the skill based ones are much more significant.

If yu are in a game that hase low magic or has magic use being limited by political concerns - then all magic feats (except for those that aid in disguising magic use) are leaning towards the useless side.

Too many situational considerations to come up with an absolute scale.

Even feats that are in general pretty useless can be very, very usefull given the right type of game. For example endurance is in general a pretty poor feat since the skills it gives benefits to are very situational. But in the right game. . . Also in 3.5 they added a benefit that you won't suffer fatigue while sleeping in medium armor. In a game where your group is frequently ambushed at night - this feat becomes tremendously useful.

 

[FEADIN]

Quick draw seems more useful than the 5 it get, nearly all melee characters (above 5th level) need it if they want to maximize damage and if they have to change weapon.

 

[green slime]

Wow... so much effort, and so much I disagree with.

Far shot is almost worthless in most campaigns: the average encounter distance is much less than the improved range would allow you shoot,making it basically a complete waste.

The entire Mounted feat chain is extremely circumstancial.

IMO, Shot on the Run is not that good, which is reflected by the fact it will generally be one of the very last feats an archer will bother to take, when most others have already been obtained.

Improved Sunder is a complete waste: why destroy your treasure?

Improved Two weapon fighting is of less value than Two weapon fighting, and Greater even less so. Because you are only gaining iterative attacks that are worse, and less likely to hit the opposition you are facing.

Some of the Item Creation feats are weak because of the opportunity cost they involve. While it is relatively cheap and easy to make scrolls, rings are so exhorbitantly expensive, and take such a length of time, you aren't going to see much use of that feat; this in turn means most characters will view it as suboptimal, and choose a different feat.

All skill feats are not equal. Some skills are far more useful than others.

And on a scale of 1-20, I'd give Leadership a 40.

 

[Physiker]

Improved Sunder is a complete waste: why destroy your treasure?

I'd disagree, fighting against hydras or kraken let you value this feat.
Because you are able to target several weak "creatures" instead of one strong.

So Improved Sunder depends on circumstances but is not useless.

 

[Runestar]

Allow me to clarify - I graded those feats according to how useful in general I believed them to be. True, each feat should be able to shine under a very specific context, but you have to ask yourself if that is worth burning a feat slot, as the opportunity cost to that would be another feat which might be more useful overall.

Take for instance, still/silent spell. A wizard will find it very difficult to predict when he is going to require said spell as he cannot predict when he might get grappled/pinned. If nothing happens, you have just wasted a higher lv slot preparing what is essentially a lower lv spell. The wizard may find that he is better off either accessing that key spell via SLA (as per the archmage's ability) or simply using a metamagic rod.

This might imply that they are somewhat more useful in the hands of a spontaneous caster, until you realize that sorcs cast a stilled/silent spell as a full round action, and you cannot use full-round actions while grappled/pinned.

Granted, I can visualize scenarios when having access to still spells would be a godsend (such a casting a silent dimension door while being grappled by a foe under a silence spell), but overall, they seem quite inefficient choices, especially when a wizard could be taking more utilitarian feats that see use more often, such as empower or extend spell.

Likewise, for improved sunder, outside of a small subset of foes who are actually impacted by sunder, the majority of foes either don't use weapons, have natural weapons (so they have something to fall back on) or/and are difficult to sunder (because they outclass the fighter in terms of size/str).

Same for disarm. Tripping is still viable because improved trip effectively gives you back the attack you gave up for it, so you aren't any worse off.