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steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
I don't know as long as you equate the arcane caster with knowledge you cannot truly call it a day. You defined the Druid as the learned priest by putting it next to the arcane axis.

Ah yes. This was anticipated as well. I recall you have a kind of dissonance when it comes to sorcerers [note the small "s"]. I will try to explain.

The Wizard block contains all kinds of arcane magic users that can be considered "wizards" in whatever world they are in. Their being a Wizard means they depend on their magic and knowledge to handle the challenges of adventuring. Again, note the small "k." The Wizard block and Mage default label are, in no way, defining the abilities and specific mechanics and "Lore skills."

Your game world or even just your specific character can be an innately magical "sorcerer" who uses their arcane spells through personal force of will and concentration...the other guy at the table makes a character that uses arcane spells that they learn and study and write in books. BOTH types have knowledge of how to use their magic...one's figured it out themselves, one's read it in a book.

It is different knowledge, different modes of access their magic, but the core of the class: "using magic and their knowledge" is...not similar, but precisely the same. Thus, sorcerer is not a different class from a book-studying magic-user whether they're called "wizard" or "mage" or "sorcerer" or anything else.

As for the Druid's position, it is there, again, because it moreso than any other archetypal class a Priest and a Wizard in equal measure. They use their enlightenment, faith in their beliefs, magic and knowledge. There is also the added layer of their magic doing "some stuff divine magic can do" and "other stuff arcane magic can do." but that's not really important for their position by "How they do adventuring."

If a game, campaign setting or individual player defines that as "Natural magic" or the "Primal Power Source", "Druid spells" or simply innate druidic powers, doesn't really matter. A Druid can easily be interpreted, conceived, created and played as "a learned priest [of nature]." Sure. They can as easily be: the wild mad man in the woods that knows and can do strange things, the shapeshifter, the guy that tends the fields and animals of a village or surrounds themself with the animals of the wild woods, the local healer or "wise woman" [a Witch type of druid?], the defender of Nature or their Order of Nature Priests' liaison with the realms of "civilized" Men...even a "nature magic adept" with innate magic-using ability, viewed by those in town as a "sorcerer" even! ;)

None of that alters where the Druid is or why it is there...and, applied to your assertions about Sorcerer, should show why it is not included as its own separate class archetype.

The Sorcerer goes beyond mere fluff, unlike the dnd wizard and the bard the sorcerer class isn't knowledge focused,

I disagree...on both counts. The first is illustrated above, the second is the apparent needing to repeat your set-in-stone view of that "knowledge" immediately implies only that the character has Lore skills. This diagram, once again because it bares repeating, does not speak to the specific mechanics of a particular class since, as evidenced above, and explained in the second post, this breakdown is about the types of classes...the "How they do." Questions and arguments about "what they have" to do "how they do" are not relevant...not warrant individual classes.

I can make a Cleric that can Channel. I could use the same Channel mechanic for a Warlock's powers. Because one person's Cleric channels different and another just "Turns Undead" and still another only has spells, no channeling, doesn't mean each type of Cleric deserves its own Class.

I can make a Paladin that can Channel as well...or one that can't channel but has access to divine spells...or one that just evokes Auras of their powers on their own no channel or spellcasting mechanic at all (hmm...does that make them a sorcerer-paladin? ;)

Are you beginning to see or am I just talking in circles/loosing you?
simple refluffing doesn't cut it (yes a sorcerer can be knowledgeable, but in the four versions of the class, ARcana or knowledge arcana is always the lowest point of the class, in 4e the compulsory arcane trainning was out of place given that Int competes with a co-secundary score -dex-, and in 3.0, 3.5 and PF is to qualify for some fix feats and wizardy PrCs)

See above. None of this is relevant.

Just given this fact makes the sorcerer class even more generic than the wizard -the core of the class isn't "mommy was a dragon/angel/thing" but "I just have magic" compare it with the "I studied to get magic" from wizards.

And that, "I just have magic" puts them squarely, firmly, inarguably within the block of Wizard classes, for which the Mage is the default...now if to that Mage is tacked on studying and preparing spells from books and Arcane Lore skills, that's one kind of Mage. Just as easily and completely justifiable is tacking on "I just have magic and learned/figured out how to use it like this" [due to the fluff only bits of "mommy's a dragon/angel/thing" or "folks in this world are just born with it" or whatever]. Now, if you want to call that character a "Sorcerer" then fine. But it is just as easily called a "Mage" or, by virtue of it adventuring by using its magic and knowledge, a ""Wizard."

Also how do you refluff the compulsory esoteric knowledge training on the wizard to have nothing to do with knowledge? hoe do you refluff a class feature that centers on the existance of books so it has nothing to do with books?

See above, re: refluffing options and one's "locked in" definitions of knowledge and wizard. I think I've offered at least a couple of refluffing options. There are, no doubt, many more just waiting to be created. In case I'm not being clear: You "take out "compulsory esoteric knowledge training" and put in "I'm just magic cuz mommy was a dragon" or "This half-giant guy walked into my hovel one day and told me, 'Yer a wizard, Harry.'" or "This world doesn't have wizard academies. People [even EVERYone in the world] is born with magic. They just have to figure out how to use it."
 

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steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Yes, I can't avoid thinking that the "jewel" could benefit from being made three dimensional. If you add one "pole" above for "allies with the power of nature" and one below for "users of raw talent" I think you could find homes for the monk, ranger, druid, sorceror and psychic that fit better with their overall tone. Ranger has only been without (nature) magic in recent editions, and 3.x/4E classes like Warden would fit in the space between Warrior and Druid, too. Shaman could be better integrated...

This is a really interesting suggestion...maybe I'll give it a shot...obviously would require a different/more than one diagram. But it's an interesting thought...and challenge...hmmmm.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
In terms of the Mystic/Crusader question... the class that is CLERIC/Fighter (as opposed to the Cavalier which is Cleric/FIGHTER)... I'd actually go with the Templar myself. I think you are right in that Crusader seems a bit too much an offshoot of paladin, and that the mystic is a bit nebulous.

(At least to me) the Templar invokes a more martial bent that your standard Cleric. Clerics cover the whole gamut of warrior priests to cloistered priests... whereas Templars imply going out in the world and fighting for their gods. Technically that matches what Crusaders do at the broadest level... but because Templar is adapted from "temple", plus has the Knights Templar as a concept in the back of our heads... I at least get more of a religious and clerical feel from them than I do the Crusader. Maybe it doesn't invoke that in other people (valid choice), but I certainly buy it more than Mystic at the very least.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Oh, and I'd also second the point that the CLERIC/Wizard be called Invoker rather than Thamauturgist. Might as well use the class name that is still active amongst the playerbase than one that's barely had any traction over the years. :)
 

Balesir

Adventurer
This is a really interesting suggestion...maybe I'll give it a shot...obviously would require a different/more than one diagram. But it's an interesting thought...and challenge...hmmmm.
Yeah, I admit it would be a bea-hitch to draw! B-)

Glad you like the basic idea, though - there's no real reason to be limited to two dimensions (other than the drawing thing...)

P.S.: Isometric drawing paper (a grid of equilateral triangles - squint and you can see them as a 3D grid of cubes) might help.
 

Storminator

First Post
You've taken on a hard task, SD. I think you've done a pretty good job. Honestly, if someone had drawn up something like this way back when, then designed classes to it, instead of lumping things together hodgepodge, I think we'd be in a better place. As it is, people think you've misplaced classes because the classes themselves aren't very coherent.

PS
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
This is a really interesting suggestion...maybe I'll give it a shot...obviously would require a different/more than one diagram. But it's an interesting thought...and challenge...hmmmm.

Eh... based upon how you structured your original idea-- the two axis of brains versus brawn and self action versus granted action... adding in another point just for "nature based" goes against everything you put forth.

Because let's be clear here... Druids, Barbarians, Rangers, Wardens, and Shaman COULD all be one class. Just like the Cleric.

The Cleric encompasses all different types and styles of character-- entirely based around the god they have chosen to follow. Melee types, ranged weapon types, skill-based types, magic types, defender types, slayer types etc. etc. The only connection all these different types of characters have is that their abilities are granted and/or heightened by divine influence.

By the same token... if you were to pluck out "divine influence" and replace it with "nature" (and the different types of nature having various influences and "domains")... you could subsume all those other classes into a single one. The "barbarian domain" is like the cleric's Storm domain. The "shaman domain" is like the cleric's Life domain. The "druid domain" is like the Cleric's Magic domain. The "ranger domain" is like the cleric's Trickery domain.

So if you're going to give "being nature-based!" the same standing you are giving what is the baseline influence of the the cleric... then really all the spokes off the cleric shouldn't be new classes... but rather just the domains of the cleric. Because the spokes off of "divine influence" are those domains, just like the spokes off of "nature's influence" have been designated as full classes (when in actuality, if we're using the cleric as a mirror... they probably shouldn't.)
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Ah yes. This was anticipated as well. I recall you have a kind of dissonance when it comes to sorcerers [note the small "s"]. I will try to explain.

The Wizard block contains all kinds of arcane magic users that can be considered "wizards" in whatever world they are in. Their being a Wizard means they depend on their magic and knowledge to handle the challenges of adventuring. Again, note the small "k." The Wizard block and Mage default label are,in no way, defining the abilities and specific mechanics and "Lore skills."

The bold part is the part where we don't agree. (more to that below) There is a huge difference between "I solve challenges using my magic" and "I solve challenges using my arcane knowledge of magic", the later excludes a big amount of characters the former embraces. (again more to that below)

Your game world or even just your specific character can be an innately magical "sorcerer" who uses their arcane spells through personal force of will and concentration...the other guy at the table makes a character that uses arcane spells that they learn and study and write in books. BOTH types have knowledge of how to use their magic...one's figured it out themselves, one's read it in a book.

I argue that having the ability to control something doesn't really matches with knowing that same thing, under your premise and ample meaning of knowledge (and to be honest is fair, such is the way people normally use the word knowledge, most people can safely exchange "I can cook" with "I know how to cook") Every character solves challenges through something and knowledge. and as consequence saying "magic and knowledge" is redundant, thus saying a wizard solves challenges with magic produces no dissonance to me. (see the next paragraph)


It is different knowledge, different modes of access their magic, but the core of the class: "using magic and their knowledge" is...not similar, but precisely the same. Thus, sorcerer is not a different class from a book-studying magic-user whether they're called "wizard" or "mage" or "sorcerer" or anything else.
Under the amended expression "using magic", yes innate, learned, pacted, bestowed, cursed, inherited magic users are indeed a single class. The problem is this second instance of "knowledge" is a using the more restricted definition of knowledge, the one that translates as lores, academical knowledge, erudite knowledge, mental knowledge all of them beyond simple know how, then this second instance of "using magic and knowledge" is more restricted as reinforced by your view of the Druid.


See above, re: refluffing options and one's "locked in" definitions of knowledge and wizard. I think I've offered at least a couple of refluffing options. There are, no doubt, many more just waiting to be created. In case I'm not being clear: You "take out "compulsory esoteric knowledge training" and put in "I'm just magic cuz mommy was a dragon" or "This half-giant guy walked into my hovel one day and told me, 'Yer a wizard, Harry.'" or "This world doesn't have wizard academies. People [even EVERYone in the world] is born with magic. They just have to figure out how to use it."

Again conflating the know how with the know why. Having the know how means you have the skill to control or do something, Having the know why translates in a whole different set of abilities. For example my brother is a great driver, has the right instincts when it comes to driving, has no problems understanding that he needs to refill the car with gas, when to do the changes and stuff. Yet he doesn't knows the why of all these things, the principle under which the motor works, the story of the internal combustion engine, who invented it, it's parts and the way they interact, how do you recognize the internal parts of a car, why fuel injection cars are turned on differently than older ones, how to find the source of mechanical failures, etc, I do know those things and can contribute with that knowledge when a situation arises while he doesn't, yet he is the better driver of the two and would gladly have him as the driver if we were being chased. I know what to do to drive because I understand the machine below, he knows what to do to drive because it works. If there was a generic driver class he would be the archetypal driver and I would be an example of a very specialized build, if driving a car was instead using magic, he would be a sorcerer and I would be a wizard but under your chart there would be no way to accurately represent him, despite he being the more generic and inclusive example. As long as the book-learned wizard remains the default, there is no place in the class for the sorcerer. (And that is why I like the sorcerer class, it allows me to make characters that couldn't be created under the wizard class and it also allows to create the same characters that could)
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Eh... based upon how you structured your original idea-- the two axis of brains versus brawn and self action versus granted action... adding in another point just for "nature based" goes against everything you put forth.

Wooooahnonono. I simply meant looking at what I already have as a 3D diagram...liiiike...would look like a 8-sided die standing on end, I'm guessing.

No, adding another axis based on power course would be a completely different visual. I could do one of those...but not right now. ;)

Yes, everything you post is correct...and now I'm envisioning pages of flower/spoked wheel type graphs with...<shakes head> Yeah, not doin' that! lol.

Sorry for the confusion.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
Wooooahnonono. I simply meant looking at what I already have as a 3D diagram...liiiike...would look like a 8-sided die standing on end, I'm guessing.
This is what I had in mind, yes.

To be clear, the specific "nodes" I gave were purely off the top of my head examples. It's clear that SD has thought through the current axes carefully - I'm not saying they are wrong, just that there seems to be *something* missing - and that could be represented on a third axis (making the "jewel" a D8 shape).

The "something" is not trivial to pin down; some ideas might be:

- the concept of chi or wu-shi - effortless (but effective) action, perhaps, for the monk and maybe also "nature" types (since it involves acting from unconscious instincts rather than intellectually or even consciously thought out strategies).

- The concept of sheer willpower for the psychic/psionic types. This might even represent an opposite to the above, since it involves the imposition of will rather than submission to natural instinct or "flow".

The first might also relate to music and dance (and hence the bard, to some degree), and to some of the "edges" of religion (avengers, perhaps). The second might touch on sorcerors (magic through will rather than knowledge).

Or, maybe, the axis should be "Drawing Power From The Self" versus "Drawing Power From The Environment"? Sorcerors find magic inside themselves, monks centre within. Druids, on the other hand, draw on their surroundings for power. Those in the middle - clerics and most wizards, for example - use specific bits of the environment to which they form a personal bond - the middle road. Some wizard variants, however, have drawn power from the world around them (Dark Sun's defilers and preservers, for example).
 

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