Exalted Deeds/Vile Darkness - Broken?

I have the opportunity to pick up good copies of both Book of Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds. One of the people I play with has a lot of experience playing, and says both of these books are broken. I'd like verification that this is the case? Is it worth it to pick the books up?
 

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Celebrim

Legend
Yes, your experienced friend is correct; it's generally agreed that the content in the books is very unbalanced.

I personally wouldn't pay for them. I found that there treatment of both good and evil was shallow even by D&D's typically unphilosophical standards, the writing was poor, and very little of the content was usable or demanding to be included in my game. The book in general wasn't helped by the fatuous handling of the 'adult content' which seemed to be more marketing driven than anything else, and the contents just don't serve well as either inspiration for dark fantasy (compare the over the top Lamentations of a Flame Princess, which is at least dark, if not often mature) nor as mature handling of serious but graphic subject matter.

Of the two, the Book of Vile Darkness is the better in every way (including for me being the less morally objectionable, go figure), but that's not really saying a lot. The Book of Exalted Deeds is so bad it even looks like it had low production standards. The art is generally inferior and its overall an ugly book.

I would like to think that almost any experienced DM could have done better, albeit probably not in what appears to me the product of a very rushed, get it published, we don't care what the quality is, timeframe. The BoED looks like it was rushed out the door by people who were not particularly inspired by the subject matter and who were just phoning it in.
 

Dandu

First Post
Of the two, the Book of Vile Darkness is the better in every way (including for me being the less morally objectionable, go figure), but that's not really saying a lot.
Especially considering, you know, Cancer Mage.
 

Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
Book of Vile Darkness has some good material. Exalted Deeds is just garbage. I am happy I bought the former; I wouldn't even pirate the latter.

(To my shame, I actually bought the Book of Egregiously-bad Design and still own it. I even allowed the touch of holy golden urine in my game. [That's a feat that inflicts a not-disease on evil things.] Vow of poverty, BTW, actually did a reasonable job of turning the monk PC into something almost worthwhile.)
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Same here. Even looking at the art gallery of the Book of Vile Furries (BOED) should tip one off about that book.

And here is the Book of Vile Darkness art Gallery

I couldn't find the trope name looking through TV tropes, but there is this reoccurring theme that often shows up in stories and in fantasy in particular where Good is Also Evil. The basic idea is that any extremist for good is also evil. That is, as a person becomes more zealously good, there comes a point where they cease being more caring, more honest, more benevolent and start becoming more cruel, more hypocritical, and eventually malevolent. Anyone that appears good inevitably falls or turns out to have been the villain all along.

You might recognize this as the seemingly strange alignment of True Neutral in the original 1e AD&D, where right action was defined as making sure none of the alignments actually won because extreme goodness would be just as horrible as extreme evil. D&D has always leaned really heavily on the trope. It also shows up as Pholtus the 'good' deity of cruelty, hypocrisy, arrogance, and lack of compassion in Greyhawk, and its not accidental that Pholtus and the description of True Neutral came from the same source. But it also shows up in 'Chronicles of the Dragonlance' when it is explained by a 'good' deity, that the gods inflicted the cataclysm on Kyrnn not because the people had become hypocritical, cruel, banal, unmerciful, self-righteous and so forth (and therefore, no longer actually good), but because they really were 'more good' and even the 'most good' people had ever been and this most goodness was actually responsible for the aforementioned traits. In other words, good and evil are basically the same thing in their extremes, and things have to be kept in balance - as 'wise' good people know. And it shows up in pretty much every Paladin every presented in any detail in D&D history, where Paladins are at best pompous jerks or weak naïve victims, and fallen Paladins outnumber righteous ones by a considerable degree. The story arc of the Paladin in Neverwinter Nights was so ordinary as to be the conventional depiction of Paladins in D&D. And while Order of the Stick typically treats alignment with a lot more depth and thoughtfulness than TSR/WotC published works, Miko is pretty much full on in the middle of this trope. The heroic and sympathetic portrayal of O-Chul is unusual in D&D media for giving any indication that there are Paladins you might like to know, and that such types aren't wholly outside the norm.

When I started glancing through Book of Exalted Deeds, I really felt like I was reading the work of someone that really believed the 'more good is the same as more evil' and was deeply uncomfortable with the subject matter or with portraying good in a sympathetic manner and not as some more pathetic less clear eyed version of evil, or conversely that evil was just really misunderstood. The BoVD wasn't exactly good source material for how vile evil and darkness actually can be, but at least the writer wasn't writing from a conflicted perspective.
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
The general consensus is yes: both books are badly-written, unbalanced (full of both cheese and traps), low-quality, and just generally not worth the time it takes to read them. A couple of decent ideas exist in both, I'm sure, but they're few and far between.

Perhaps ironically, the 4th edition version of BoVD was substantially better; it still had some production-value issues, but the reviews I've read suggest it was a good supplement stretched thin rather than the nightmare we got in 3e. It also had tons of roleplaying advice and suggestions.

There was no BoED equivalent, which is a bit of a shame.
 

MoutonRustique

Explorer
The BoVD has, what in certain ways, what is "required" in 3.x for DMs to create nasty NPCs - as an example of such things : vile damage. The whole idea of "vile damage" is that it's incredibly hard to heal. There are a gajillion (yes, yes, I checked!) ways to "add 1 point of vile damage to your fireball" and whatnot - these are (of course, there are some circumstances where this isn't true) completely worthless to PCs...

So yeah... it's not the greatest in terms of mechanics for the most part - on the other hand, I've found it (at the time) a great starting point for my own mechanics. It's always easier to start when you have a base/spark even if that base must be burned to the ground (with previously mentioned spark).
 

Voadam

Legend
I really like the archfiends sections in Book of Vile Darkness, even having bought the superior Fiendish Codexes, I later bought and found neat things in BoVD. Thrall classes are decent conceptually as is the Ur-Priest, though there are mechanical issues. Everyone loves the cancer mage. Vile did not impress me though or a number of other things. It is not great across the board but there are good parts.

I was really disappointed in The Book of Exalted Deeds. I found its discussion of good particularly poor and the specific requirements for exalted status to be problematic, taking potential problems and issues of ways to interpret and implement paladins and squaring them. I liked the vow of poverty as an attempt at a reasonable no gear option, I liked the nymph's kiss feat for a specific character I played that it fit. I wanted to like the arch celestials, but they were mostly stat blocks with almost no narrative elements to them that left me with little to work with. The saint template is OK. I mostly use it as a source for extra celestials as it adds a number.
 

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