Excerpt: Economies [merged]

[Sojorn]

It's funny because in AD&D we never allowed the selling of magical items at all. They were given to henchmen, trusted friends, or used as a bribe. Selling them just wasn't allowed. And it never was a problem.

This is acceptable too.

Just make that 20% find it's way back to the PCs in the form of more treasure and they can literally give away every item they come across

 

[FireLance]

Now, dusting off my memories of my undergraduate courses in psychology and game theory, I think the key issue is not so much one of "realism" as it is of "fairness".

After all, there is nothing particularly "realistic" about the 50% initial selling price, 100% resale price model that we have gotten used to as the standard, either. It's just that a 50-50 split between the principal (the PC) and the agent (the merchant) seems somehow fairer as opposed to a 1:6 split, considering the initial selling price of 20% and the potential resale price of 140%.

As a DM, you could certainly allow PCs to buy and sell magic items at 100% of the standard item value if you want (for the record, I pretty much did this in 3e). Just be prepared for the players to optimize their PCs' items (unless you give them a restricted list of items they can purchase) and for the resultant knock-on effects on gameplay.

 

[Sir_Darien]

You don't HAVE to punish them. If you like you can let them have all the treasure they want. It just depends how much you want preserve game balance. The system is fine.

The point was that I must punish ingenuity in order to preserve game balance. That IS the problem with the system.

 

[Sojorn]

The point was that I must punish ingenuity in order to preserve game balance. That IS the problem with the system.

Who's punishing? They get the money from a merchanting skill challenge rather than adventuring. They'll probably get XP for it too. Of course now they've sold the item and can't resell it again for more money and XP.

It comes out of the treasure for that level. Which is like saying that they're being punished for getting XP since that comes out of the XP for that level.

 

[Sir_Darien]

Who's punishing? They get the money from a merchanting skill challenge rather than adventuring. They'll probably get XP for it too. Of course now they've sold the item and can't resell it again for more money and XP.

It comes out of the treasure for that level. Which is like saying that they're being punished for getting XP since that comes out of the XP for that level.

I'm afraid I don't understand your argument.

I am saying that I don't feel it is fair to give my players less treasure down the road if they find an inventive way to sell items for more than 20% of the value they would pay for them.

 

[Sojorn]

I'm afraid I don't understand your argument.

I am saying that I don't feel it is fair to give my players less treasure down the road if they find an inventive way to sell items for more than 20% of the value they would pay for them.

But you don't actually give them less treasure down the road. They're closer to leveling from the skill challenge to sell the item and so are closer to graduating to the treasure from the next level.

Clearer perhaps?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I'm afraid I don't understand your argument.

I am saying that I don't feel it is fair to give my players less treasure down the road if they find an inventive way to sell items for more than 20% of the value they would pay for them.

The problem is this: What happens when the PCs find an inventive way to sell EVERY magic item you give them for 100% of its value. All magic items in 4e of the same level have the same cost. Now, since we aren't punishing them by lowering the amount of gold or items we are giving them, then they now have 5 times the amount of gold the game expects them to have.

This 5 times as much gold gives them 5 times as many magic items...or possibly just as many magic items, but many, many levels higher. Which, might be +2 difference on their weapons and armor. This essentially gives them all a 10% miss chance against enemies of their own level and make their attacks hit 10% more often and do more damage. Which is pretty powerful. Monsters are no longer a challenge for them so you increase the level of the monsters you are sending against them, which only makes them level faster...and you have to give out treasure even faster since you are giving them their expected amount of wealth each level.

It's a rather repetitive cycle. Rather than have to deal with that, it's much easier to do it behind the scenes by adjusting treasure you give them. You can also save yourself the work of recalculating the amount of treasure you need to hand out all the time by simply saying "No" when they try to find a way to sell an item for more than 1/5th its value. YMMV, but I prefer my player's innovation to come in the form of interesting ways to solve the problems I throw at them rather than attempts to work around the system so they can make their characters more powerful.

 

[FadedC]

Yeah, who needs one of those? I'm just baffled by the notion that NPCs are so attached to their magic items they will never sell them at a reasonable price, yet the PCs have extra items just lying around gathering dust.

High price items take a long time to sell. You need to find somebody who....

a) can use it
b) can afford it
c) Doesn't already have it or something better
d) wants that exact flaming sword and not the the shocking battleaxe the merchant is selling

I live in Manhattan and there is a HUGE demand for real estate and apartments here. But yet it can take months or even years to find a buyer for something.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

High price items take a long time to sell. You need to find somebody who....

a) can use it
b) can afford it
c) Doesn't already have it or something better
d) wants that exact flaming sword and not the the shocking battleaxe the merchant is selling

I live in Manhattan and there is a HUGE demand for real estate and apartments here. But yet it can take months or even years to find a buyer for something.

Or in other words: Yes, the players can sell at 100 % market price value (or something close enough to satisfy them), but they have to wait for it. They might not even have to exclusively become merchants, but it will take weeks or months for them to give it away, meaning they might gain a few levels in the mean-time. End result is they get the full market price value, but for their financial needs at their new level, it is meaningless.

The merchants is there, now. He offers 20 % of what he hopes to sell the item for NOW.

 

[AZRogue]

I'm afraid I don't understand your argument.

I am saying that I don't feel it is fair to give my players less treasure down the road if they find an inventive way to sell items for more than 20% of the value they would pay for them.

It may not feel fair to you, but it's balanced. And since the PCs are never going to be aware of it, it's never going to feel unfair. It's for their own good. Like medicine.