Excerpt: skill challenges

[drjones]

So what would happen if a PC tried to impress the duke with his acrobatics skill? Would it be an automatic failure, or would it not count for anything?

I'd ask what the player wants to do exactly (swinging from the chandelier probably not going to impress the duke) but I think even a great success might earn a gold piece for entertaining him and not effect the challenge unless he is a particularly fond of acrobats. Bad failure might distract the target from someone elses negotiation and cause a negative on their roll?

 

[kilpatds]

initimidation

I also have issues with how the template handles intimidate. I think the issue is an implicit assumption that won't always be true: That the NPC is more powerful in total than the PCs. I think I'd prefer something like:

Setup: For the NPC to provide assistance, the PCs need to convince him or her of their trustworthiness and that their cause helps the NPC in some way. The NPC is in a superior position (more troops/power/control/etc) to the PCs.

Level: Equal to the level of the party, depending on the power/influence of the NPC. For example, up to 15 for a regional baron, 20 for an emporer, or 30 for an extraplaner ruler.

...

Intimidate (extremely hard): The NPC refuses to be intimidated by the PCs. Baring extraordinary circumstances, each use of this skill fails.
​

Where an "extrememly hard" check has a DC set to be an auto-failure for all but the most speciallized, and still only counts as one success. (Assumed stat mod of Level + 5 (trained) + 5 (skill focus) + 1/2 level (scaling) + 25 (impossible))

As this is a template, it needs to show the underlying assumptions. Then, if the situation involves 29th or 30th level PCs trying to get the Duke to set up his troops to funnel the 35th level solo Tarrasque toward the party... Well, that's really just a level 15 encounter, so the DCs are no longer that high, and Intimidate is perfectly viable, if still harder than other approaches.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Um, no. If its exponential, then a complexity 22 skill challenge would be 4,194,304 successes before 2,097,152. Even a complexity 4 (so 16 successes before 8 failures) seems excessive. And since I have a hard time imagining a resolution of only 3 options (well possibly 4 if there's a 0 complexity challenge, which would be a straight skill check), I'm guessing that my formula is wrong, and that there's just a chart somewhere.

Well, it doesn't need to go very far. There might just be 3 or 4 complexities. Complexity might be to skill challenges what Minion, Elite and Solo is to monsters.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

*chuckles* Thanks

I look at in two ways. I am not worried about convincing grognards, long beards, or 3.X slider rule fanatics that I am right. I figure some of these examples I might not have thought off, and heck even one person sees a good idea then bam I win.

thats the good thing about derren... we can grab many good ideas from those trying to expain why a rule might work...

 

[Derren]

This is like arguing that a pit fiend's fire resistance is railroading, because it means you can't use fire spells to defeat it. Fire spells are for killing things, so if I can't use them for that in any one particular situation, the DM is a railroader.

No, that is more akin to the "The Duke can't be intimidated" restriction.

This history restriction is more like the Pit Fiend having very high defenses and resistances till the PCs hit it with a a certain energy type and they neither know this type or even that there is a way to lower the Pit Fiends defenses.

 

[Grazzt]

It's important to note that this is only one of 2 methods mentioned (so far) for handling non-combat challenges in 4e. The other is structure-free. I.e. the players play and the DM adjudicates.. Both are supposedly in this chapter.

And the bolded one is the one I'll be using (in the book or not) in my games. Not a fan of skill challenges from what Ive seen thus far.

 

[drjones]

Say the party has a half-elf warlock with Diplomacy trained. That's probably about a +11 Diplomacy at level 1. The sample encounter is clearly a social skill challenge. What's to prevent a party deciding, "The warlock's Diplomacy check is the best relevant skill in the party here. We'll just have this whole challenge be based on that." And it's probably the best idea. If you have a tiefling rogue in the party with a +10 Bluff, that character still shouldn't bother participating unless you have some idea that bluffing will be easier in this case (like History is).

The Duke nods "that does seem reasonable, you are very eloquent Mr. half elf. And you, grubby street urchin looking halfling, why should I lend my support to your cause?'

So long as you don't frame this to the players as a math problem where they know all variables I don't think it will take heavy role playing to avoid the players using the same skill over and over.

 

[Propheous_D]

I also have issues with how the template handles intimidate. I think the issue is an implicit assumption that won't always be true: That the NPC is more powerful in total than the PCs. I think I'd prefer something like:


Where an "extrememly hard" check has a DC set to be an auto-failure for all but the most speciallized, and still only counts as one success. (Assumed stat mod of Level + 5 (trained) + 5 (skill focus) + 1/2 level (scaling) + 25 (impossible))

As this is a template, it needs to show the underlying assumptions. Then, if the situation involves 29th or 30th level PCs trying to get the Duke to set up his troops to funnel the 35th level solo Tarrasque toward the party... Well, that's really just a level 15 encounter, so the DCs are no longer that high, and Intimidate is perfectly viable, if still harder than other approaches.

Not to be rude, but this has been rehashed over and over. This is completely MISSING the point of the skill challenge. You *CAN* intimidate the Duke. However, he doesn't like dealing with people who intimidate him, and he will not speak on your behalf or have much to do with you if he can avoid it. That means your goal of having him on your side working for your better good will *NOT* happen. What do you do then kill him? Cause that would be a complete failure of the challenge.

Remember Even if you can do something it might not be in your best interest to do it. For instance I can remove a hot pan from the stove and get it to the counter. However, rather then grabbing it and taking the pain it might behove me to use a towerl or something else to shield me form the heat.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Eh.

I'll just note that players and DM who are new with each other rarely "sync up" and really roleplay well the first couple sessions. There just needs to be a level of comfort and understanding that can't happen immediately. Or at cons or tournaments.

I think Skill Challenges will be helpful in certain situations:
1. At Cons when you can be nice and explicit without having to guess what the DM "really means."
2. When dealing with players who are totally new to roleplaying. It gives them a structure to latch on to, and encourages a feel for the "ebb and flow" of non-combat encounters and situations.
3. When dealing with people who have been brainwashed by the "beat a DC 20 Bluff to get result X" form of roleplaying. If you don't want any more than that, fine, you can play your game as you choose. But some people may not even realize there's another way, so this will help them break out of the mold.

But barring those situations, I think I'll leave this Chapter un-used. I don't need a stat block for social encounters, and I certainly don't want to be hemmed in and limited by it. Except in the situations above, this will be far more limiting than it will be empowering. I hope the DMG makes that clear, since otherwise WotC is doing a real disservice to new gamers who are counting on the DMG to be teach them how to play.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Remember Leonidas' reaction to being intimidated? He didn't even bother sending back the heads. . . He knew he was not more powerful than Xerxes and his army - that was not the issue.

Messenger: No man, Persian or Greek, no man threatens a messenger!
King Leonidas: You bring the crowns and heads of conquered kings to my city steps. You insult my queen. You threaten my people with slavery and death! Oh, I've chosen my words carefully, Persian. Perhaps you should have done the same!