Expecting an Ambush

[Maleketh]

I've recently had a rules debate with some of my players regarding the party being prepared for an ambush.

The situation is this: the party, travellign through a dungeon, is beset by ghost wizards flitting out of the walls to attack. The first time, the party was caught unawares, and the ghosts got a surprise round as normal. The party took heavy damage and used dimension door to retreat.

Now they've gone back, expecting the ghosts to come out of the walls again, which they did. Should the ghosts get a surprise round? The party's expecting them to come, but doesn't know when or from where.

 

[javcs]

I would say treat it as a readied action, but require Spot checks to be able to actually use it.

 

[Patlin]

Allowing readied actions before combat starts leads to silliness in my experience. You can't always be at full readiness. Maybe a +8 circumstance bonus to spot checks allowing them to act in the surprise round would be apropriate... I assume they got some sort of check the first time?

Also, remember a ghost moving through a solid object has fairly limited information as to what it will find on the other side. If the ghosts aren't carefull, one or more of them might stumble into the party unexpectedly.

 

[Creamsteak]

Specifically regarding spot checks for finding out who is suprised during a surprise round:

Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

Try Again: Yes. You can try to spot something that you failed to see previously at no penalty.

I'm going out on a limb here with an idea.

Normally characters are assumed to be using the standard "free" spot they get each round, but characters that are actively looking around for incomming enemies might be taking multiple spot checks each round by using move actions. Two if looking while moving, or three if standing still. So if characters are actively looking out for an ambush, you might let them roll 2 times to see if they are aware during the surprise round if they are on the move, or 3 times if they are standing still.

 

[Darklone]

If the characters know the others are there, then treat the ghosts as hidden... e.g. players are still flat-footed for the first attack but there's no surprise round.

No ready-ing outside of combat.

If the players know the ghosts are there and how they will attack, why aren't they able to do some counteraction such as sending decoy illusions in there first?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

If I am reading the OP right, the Ghosts have retreated {ending the encounter/combat} and are expected to return *sometime* in the near future

As such, I would go along the lines of Creamsteaks suggestion to show that the characters are being cautious in thier advance and being prepared for combat.

Ghosts still might get a surprise round, but its less likely.

 

[polsemager]

I am the player involved in this game and the reason I argued is the following. This was the third time we entered the room, the ghosts had attacked us each of the first two as soon as we'd entered. I struggeled to grasp why brining along a mouse or some other tiny creature that one of us could grapple and bring along into the room (thus being in combat) should allow us to ready while entering very alert and expecting an ambush would leave us far wordse of. My argument was that it is/should be possible to "declare combat" for a few rounds when you're doing something where you're at maximum alert while I agree that you cant do that for hours obviously.

 

[billd91]

The problem is with "declaring combat" is... why wouldn't everyone do it all the time? As I see it, that's what making a successful spot/listen roll is for.

In the case of the ghosts using the same basic tactic one room after another, I'd give the PCs a circumstance bonus to their spot checks (perhaps even a hefty one if they describe their preparations well) to avoid the surprise but I wouldn't consider it impossible to surprise them.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I don't think theres anything in the rules about suspecting an attack. IIRC, there used to be in 2E a rule that improved your initiative by 2 if you were.

I think the easiest way to handle it would be if the PCs are suspecting an attack, and they have a good idea as to the nature of the attack (ghosts coming out of walls, the assassin sent by the guild to kill me at night, etc), that there should be no surprise round. (Unless other rules create one, like ghosts/assassins using Hide/Invisibility or the PCs are sleeping) The PCs know it's coming. They can't be surprised. Now, if the Ghost Wizards summoned Burrowing Earth Elementals, the elementals could Surprise the PCs. (And the ghosts could join the fight the next round)

 

[Mistwell]

Each party rolls a spot check to spot the other party. One or both could be surprised. I am not sure why the ghosts are given omnipotence in this situation. Can ghosts see through walls? Do they have an amazing listen check through walls? If not, how are they even knowing the party has entered the room, and where the party is in that room, before they actually poke their heads into the room to check? And if they poke their heads in, it's just spot checks as normal for each party to see if they notice the other party before the encounter begins.