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D&D 5E Experience points are too fiddly for me.

Lackhand

First Post
Not the biggest problem, but still.

I don't like having an XP budget to fill from various monsters, who are each also listed with a level.
It's mostly because I can't easily do the math in my head -- there's no quick "5 players of level 7 means 350 points worth of monster" equivalence I can do, or at least if there is, I haven't seen it yet and the numbers are nonobvious.

To a degree, I suppose this is inevitable: power levels don't necessarily scale linearly, so it takes more than 10 times as much monster to challenge a 10th level party than a 1st level party.

And if the required experience points are nonlinear (make sure everyone levels after their first session, and again after not-too-long has passed! But thereafter, make it heavily quadratic), there's that, too.

But still.

So here's my idea.

Keep monster level. Monster level is good; it's how we can tell the difference between a kobold and a lizardman. Monsters that are a 1:1 challenge for characters of level X are probably around level X in difficulty. This is a measure of the monster's per-character damage dealing abilities and a rough measure of its damage taking abilities.
It also describes what kinds of powers this monster taps into; invisibility before level 3 (see invisibility) is a bit cruel, for instance.

Then, bring back a measure like 4e's solo/elite/normal/minion -- figure out how many heads-worth of characters this monster is worth, and list them with that number, too. So a hydra might be something we see our middle-to-high tier characters fighting (level... 7?) and just one of them for the whole party (party of... 5?).
Things like extra-hit-points-to-make-the-fight-longer, applies-to-everything defenses or stunning abilities, or breath-weapons-that-spread-the-hurt-out encourage larger numbers here.
A good name for this metric: party size? band? ratio? Heads (confusing with a hydra, but the size-of-party-this-is-a-challenge-for)?

Then come up with a way to trade one for the other (half the level = twice the band? something like that).
Give advice about how far you can exceed these things -- don't use levels more than 8 above or below the average party level! Don't use fewer than one-half the head values or more than three times it! Here's where things get appreciably easier/harder!
Anyway, it depends on the math exactly, but these together let us be done with this part.

This lets DMs like me design/tweak encounters on the fly with some insight into what we're doing. Yay.

Now, on to turning these into XP numbers: Some tweaked mathematical function. It could be something like "look at the XP chart for a character of this level. Divide it by 13.333. Multiply it by the "heads" this monster was worth. Add this up for all the monsters".
I'm a little less concerned with this part, because I tend to use pacing-based and quest-based XP rewards; for DMs that use this heavily, would this work for you?
Heck, we could even include this number as well (since it's all just derived information) -- I just want better encounter-building advice!

Thoughts?
 

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S

Sunseeker

Guest
I really liked the "solo", "elite", "normal" "minion" classification, as well as the "skirmisher", "lurker", "controller" and so forth, even if the names were a little wonky. It was a good way to say that "He's not just an orc, he's Orcazor the Destructinator! Fiercest orc to have ever been born in the Hangnail tribe!" By providing a very simple system of increasing defenses, damage, and HP to better represent this advanced version of the mundane creature, without having to totally rebuild him from zero.
 

Lackhand

First Post
I really liked the "solo", "elite", "normal" "minion" classification, as well as the "skirmisher", "lurker", "controller" and so forth, even if the names were a little wonky. It was a good way to say that "He's not just an orc, he's Orcazor the Destructinator! Fiercest orc to have ever been born in the Hangnail tribe!" By providing a very simple system of increasing defenses, damage, and HP to better represent this advanced version of the mundane creature, without having to totally rebuild him from zero.
I'd take it, as long as they added a few more categories.

The gap between minion (dies in one hit -- or less, with cleave!) and standard (takes 3-4 hits to go down) was too wide. There needs to be a 2-3 hit guy in between there.
And, of course, "solo" isn't the right designation with eight people in the party -- you'd want a solo and some backup, at that point.

The idea is really good; the presentation needs some juice (IMHO). Do you have any suggestions for the juice you'd like to see provided?
 

delericho

Legend
My two-step suggestion for solving this issue:

1) Copy from 4e.
2) See #1.

Seriously, that's all that's required. 4e basically nailed the topic, with its XP budgets, monster roles, and monster levels. There's probably some tweaking required, some adjustment for working "per day" rather than "per encounter", and obviously lots of recalculation because the monsters have changed, but the mechanism is sound.

It's a problem that has already been solved, and solved well. It's not broken, so why try to fix it?
 

Chris_Nightwing

First Post
Well those of us in the simulated mindset don't really get along with Elite or Solo humanoids. Ogres and Hydras, no worries. 4E mostly succeeded on the XP budget/challenge front because there was a very narrow range of monsters you could appropriately through at the party - something the majority seems happy to be dispensed with, hence reduced advancement in accuracy. I would like to see a linear progression in power level and monster maths that works with that, but I fear that will never be the case.
 


Blackbrrd

First Post
Well those of us in the simulated mindset don't really get along with Elite or Solo humanoids. Ogres and Hydras, no worries. 4E mostly succeeded on the XP budget/challenge front because there was a very narrow range of monsters you could appropriately through at the party - something the majority seems happy to be dispensed with, hence reduced advancement in accuracy. I would like to see a linear progression in power level and monster maths that works with that, but I fear that will never be the case.

I really dislike the Elite/Solo medium sized humandoids as well. It just feels wrong and un-intuitive.

I am going to run Reavers of Harkenworld which has a medium sized humanoid level 4 solo brute. I was wondering how I was going to portray him, since he is about as five normal mobs at that level. If he is so powerful, why is he being used as some low-level punisher? I thought it through and came up with the answer: he has been the subject of a ritual that for a short time enhances his power, for this mission only.

I think 5e can easily use 4e's experience point system, and since 5e looks to have a much wider level variety on it's monsters (due to attack/defence not scaling so steeply), the result will be even better.
 


delericho

Legend
He's certainly higher level, or more skilled at fighting than most. He's not twice as tough just because.

Why is there any difference between the DM arbitrarily labelling him as "level 5" and the DM arbitrarily labelling him as "elite"?

The problem with having a single metric (level) for NPC power is that it then affects everything - the character must have better attacks, better defences, be more skilled, and so on. But that's very likely not what you want, because if you boost the attacks he becomes too lethal for the PCs, or if you boost the defences he becomes untouchable, or if you boost the skills, he gains access to powers that really don't fit.

It's also worth noting that 3e, in particular, already had a method for creating "elites" and "solos" - the DM did it by boosting the ability scores of the creature, with the knock-on effect to all the various totals, and a commensurate increase in CR. But that was always a crude measure - not only did it involve fiddly adjustments to the maths, but it also tended to create 'lopsided' challenges, allowing the PCs to strike at the weak-points, defeat the creature too easily, and thus reap undeserved XP awards.

(Incidentally, although it's not formalised, earlier editions also had similar approaches: the entries for humanoid monsters tended to read, "For every three orcs encountered, there will be a leader and three assistants. These orcs will have 8 hit points each..." or "They fight as monsters of 2 hit dice (THAC0 19)." For reference: Monstrous Manual 281-2.)

4e's elites and solos are basically just the same idea, but by formalising the second axis for advancement, they've made the math considerably easier, and also (mostly) gotten rid of the problem of lopsided challenges - all defences advance together.
 

Szatany

First Post
Why is there any difference between the DM arbitrarily labelling him as "level 5" and the DM arbitrarily labelling him as "elite"?
If there's no difference, why do you want elites put in the game that manages just fine without them?

In 4e, elites and solos had their place because math scaled very quickly between levels. Not so in 5e. Much flatter math means that you can simply use a higher level monster instead of elitizing a lower level monster to have the same (or similar enough) effect.
 

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