Expert class for PC

[Hollywood]

This is my thoughts on an Expert class for the PC and based off my tinkering and some thoughts someone posted about a single "basic class" for d20 Modern.

It has been updated based on feedback from this forum.

Thoughts? Is it balance? Will it play fairly with the other classes?

Version 0.2
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Construct your character at level 1. Distrubute 20+d8 Class Points (CP) between Base Attack Bonus, Class Abilities, Class Skills, Hit Dice, Saves, Skill Points, and Weapon and Armor Proficiency.

BASE ATTACK BONUS
CP . Attack
0 . as Wizard
2 . as Rogue
4 . as Fighter

CLASS ABILITIES
CP . Feats
0 . At every 6th level, characters will recieve a Bonus Feat.
2 . At every 4th level, characters will recieve a Bonus Feat.
4 . At every 3rd level, characters will recieve a Bonus Feat.
8 . At every 2nd level, characters will recieve a Bonus Feat.

CLASS SKILLS
CP . Skills
0 . Choose any six (Knowledge costs 2, and you may pick a number of Knowledge skills equal to your Intelligence Bonus) as class skills.
1 . Choose any ten (Knowledge costs 2, and you may pick a number of Knowledge skills equal to your Intelligence Bonus) as class skills.
2 . Choose any fourteen (Knowledge costs 2, and you may pick a number of Knowledge skills equal to your Intelligence Bonus) as class skills.
4 . Choose any twenty (Knowledge costs 2, and you may pick a number of Knowledge skills equal to your Intelligence Bonus) as class skills.
1 . Select any exclusive skill as a class exclusive skill.

HIT DICE
CP . Hit Dice
0 . d4
1 . d6
2 . d8
3 . d10
4 . d12

SAVES
CP . Save Type
0 . Poor save
2 . Good save

SKILL POINTS
CP . Skills
0 . (2 + Int mod) at level 1, 2+ Int mod at each additional level
2 . (4 + Int mod) at level 1, 4+ Int mod at each additional level
4 . (6 + Int mod) at level 1, 6+ Int mod at each additional level
8 . (8 + Int mod) at level 1, 8+ Int mod at each additional level

SPELL ABILITY
CP . Ability
0 . Cannot cast spells
1 . Limited divine spell selection at 4th level, max 4th level spells (Paladin, Ranger)
2 . Limited arcane spell selection at 4th level, max 4th level spells (Ranger progression)
3 . Limited arcane spell selection, max 6th level spells (Bard)
5 . Full divine spell selection (Druid)
5 . Full divine spell selection (Cleric)
6 . Full arcane spell selection, max 6th level spells (Wizard w/Bard progression)
8 . Full arcane spell selection, max 6th level spells (Sorcerer w/Bard progression)
12 . Full arcane spell selection (Wizard) [not available for selection]
14 . Full arcane spell selection (Sorcerer) [not available for selection]
2 . Divine domains
4 . Magical familiar

WEAPON AND ARMOR PROFICIENCY
CP . Hit Dice
1 . Choose up to any four weapons.
1 . Choose up to any four armors.
3 . Simple Weapon proficiency.
8 . Simple and Martial Weapon proficiencies.
2 . Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor or Shields proficiency.
-1 . Limited armor selection, i.e. no metal armor.

Class Abilities: The character may select from any feat that is not an Item Creation or Metamagic feat plus any of the following: Evasion, Fast Movement, Favored Enemy, Rage, Trackless Step, Traps, Uncanny Dodge (flat-footed), Uncanny Dodge (non-flank), Woodland Stride

Testing:

Barbarian: ATTACK: 4, CLASS SKILLS: 1, HIT DICE: 4, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 2, SPELLS: 0, WEAPONS: 8, ARMOR: 6, TOTAL: 27
Bard: ATTACK: 2, CLASS SKILLS: 4(1 + 3 exclusive), HIT DICE: 1, SAVES: 4, SKILL POINTS: 2, SPELLS: 3, WEAPONS: 4, ARMOR: 6, TOTAL: 27
Cleric: ATTACK: 2, CLASS SKILLS: 2(1 + 1 exclusive), HIT DICE: 2, SAVES: 4, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 7, WEAPONS: 3, ARMOR: 8, TOTAL: 28
Druid: ATTACK: 2, CLASS SKILLS: 4(2 + 2 exclusive), HIT DICE: 2, SAVES: 4, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 5, WEAPONS: 3, ARMOR: 3(6 - 1 limited selection), TOTAL: 25
Fighter: ATTACK: 4, CLASS SKILLS: 0, HIT DICE: 3, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 0, WEAPONS: 8, ARMOR: 8, TOTAL: 25
Paladin: ATTACK: 4, CLASS SKILLS: 1, HIT DICE: 3, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 1, WEAPONS: 8, ARMOR: 8, TOTAL: 27
Ranger: ATTACK: 4, CLASS SKILLS: 4(3 + 1 exclusive), HIT DICE: 2, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 2, SPELLS: 1, WEAPONS: 8, ARMOR: 6, TOTAL: 29
Rogue: ATTACK: 2, CLASS SKILLS: 7(4 + 3 exclusive), HIT DICE: 1, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 8, SPELLS: 0, WEAPONS: 3, ARMOR: 2, TOTAL: 25
Sorcerer: ATTACK: 0, CLASS SKILLS: 3(2 + 1 exclusive), HIT DICE: 0, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 18, WEAPONS: 2, ARMOR: 0, TOTAL: 25
Wizard: ATTACK: 0, CLASS SKILLS: 3(2 + 1 exclusive), HIT DICE: 0, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 16, WEAPONS: 1, ARMOR: 0, TOTAL: 22

Average: (27+27+28+25+25+27+29+25+25+22)/10 = 25.9 CP

 

[Hollywood]

no thoughts at all?

 

[Jens]

One thought: I doubt any work like this. (But that didn't stop me from writing up a bunch of Flexible Classes, did it ?)

I'll look it over and comment.

Edit: You have *nothing* special except from feats. When you calculate the 'value' for the PH classes, do you account for special abilities at all? You still have a 'bit' of work to do ...

 

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by Jens I doubt any work like this.

No, haven't seen any classes that really do. I've seen a few classless/leveless, etc. rules that do something similiar. That, however, takes too many changes to the core D&D rules... this is an exercise in basically making a self-contained flexible class; no external rules necessary.

In other words, it plays nice in the D&D litterbox.

Edit: You have *nothing* special except from feats. When you calculate the 'value' for the PH classes, do you account for special abilities at all?

As noted in the testing data, NO. The reason was to exclude all special/class abilities from the core classes and concentrate only on the major abilities that would translate into an expert class. Not only that, it would make sure that the expert class, even with the addition of its "feat tree", could not be used to build the core classes... so in effect, the expert class would be slightly underpowered in a trade-off for being more flexible.

Perhaps the feat tree would start at something like 1 every 6th level for no cost, and 1 every 4th would cost 1 CP and then bump the CP up by one or two.

You still have a 'bit' of work to do ...

Of course, this is just sorta a rough draft tossed out to get feedback on.

 

[Drawmack]

Synopsis:
This class is underpowered because they fall into the lower 50% of the character classes. You can solve this one of two ways. You can make this classes power level random by taking a base of 13 cp and adding 1d6 to that so that the player gets a random number of cp to spend.

The system itself has a hole in it though at the two main arcane casters come out as the two weakest classes when play shows that this is not so. This can be fixed by altering the way that cp are spent on magic. The system lumps bonus feats and class abilities together, those should be broken out separately to allow for a bit more flexibility. In to the System.

Analysis:

BONUS FEATS
CP . Feats
0 . At every 4th level, characters will receive a Bonus Feat.
3 . At every 3rd level, characters will receive a Bonus Feat.
6 . At every 2nd level, characters will receive a Bonus Feat.

I would recommend making this point buy be class abilities not bonus feats.

1 . Select any exclusive skill as a class exclusive skill.

Should probably allow one exclusive class skill per cp spent on the number of skills and then pay this for extra exclusive skills, after all the expert template allows for two class skills.

WEAPON AND ARMOR PROFICIENCY
CP . Hit Dice
0 . Choose up to any four weapons.
0 . Choose up to any four armors.
1 . Simple or Martial weapon proficiency.
1 . Light, Medium, Heavy or Shields proficiency.
-1 . Limited selection.

Seems a bit skewed. How about 4 = simple weapon prof., 10 = simple & martial weapon prof., Limited selection = 1 point per 4 weapons. By your system I could take all but one simple weapon and all but on type of armor and pay nothing. Armor is 1 point per type.

Bonus Feats: The following class abilities, and only these class abilities unless ruled otherwise by the DM, may be taken as bonus feats: Evasion, Fast Movement, Rage, Trackless Step, Traps, Uncanny Dodge (flat-footed), Uncanny Dodge (non-flank), Woodland Stride

If you break this out into class abilities you don't have to worry about this, just make a note that fighters bonus feats are a class ability every 2 levels.

(abbreviated)
Testing:
CP of the various Core Classes [the numbers do not include class abilities]:

Bard: 18
Barbarian: 18
Druid: 17
Fighter: 15
Paladin: 17
Ranger: 19
Rogue: 16
Sorcerer: 14
Wizard: 13

Average CP for Core Classes: 16.5 CP

Numeric Analysis
I came up with 16.4, but anyway. This exercise is proof of the poor quality of averages if you ask me. There are 10 classes represented here. 5 of the classes represented have a CP value higher then the average, 1 is at the rounded average and four are below the average. At a minimum I would round the CP up, which places them with 5 at or above and 5 at or below. Makes them an average class instead of a weak class. Although the optimal way to balance the system is to weight the average. Here is the idea. Each class is worth 13 points + some amount. The highest CP is 19, which is 13 + 6, this works out nicely. I would give the player 13 + 1d6 cp to build their class.

Logical Analysis
The sorcerer and wizard are the cheapest classes by your system. With this system and 16 points I could take the wizard and have 3 points left, I could then spent those points to give myself d10 HP, plus I automatically get a bonus feat every 4th level + the standard feat every 3rd level. Makes me able to really get powerful magic with metamagic feats, plus those HP. Ouch. I would make spell casting cost more, which would better balance the system overall as the point spread between characters would be less and therefore the average would work better.

SPELL ABILITY [for testing purposes only]
CP . Ability
1 . As Bard, Paladin or Ranger
3 . As Cleric or Druid
8 . As Sorcerer or Wizard
[/B]

Here is a major flaw in the system. Bard, Paladin and Ranger pay the same amount for their spells. Well, the bard gets spells at 1st level while the paladin and ranger don't get them until 4th level. At 20th level a bard can cast 9th level spells while a Paladin or Ranger can only cast 4th (i think) level spells. I would lump the Bard in with the Cleric and Druid or even put them by themselves, which is probably the better option. Here is what I can come up with.

SPELL ABILITY:
CP Ability
0 Cannot Cast Spells
1 Limited Spell selection above 4th level, 4th level spells only (Paladin, Ranger)
3 Limited Spell selection at first level, 6th level spells only (bard)
5 Full Selection of Divine Spells (Druid, Cleric)
8 Full Spell Selection of arcane spells (Wizard, Sorcerer)
1 Spontaneous Casting
4 Magical Familiar

With my changes to the point buy system here is the new point system for the classes.
Bard: ATTACK: 2, CLASS SKILLS: 3(1 + 2 exclusive), HIT DICE: 1, SAVES: 4, SKILL POINTS: 2, SPELLS: 4, WEAPONS: 4, ARMOR: 3, TOTAL: 23

Barbarian: ATTACK: 4, CLASS SKILLS: 1, HIT DICE: 4, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 1, SPELLS: 0, WEAPONS: 10, ARMOR: 3, TOTAL: 28

Cleric: ATTACK: 2, CLASS SKILLS: 1, HIT DICE: 2, SAVES: 4, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 5, WEAPONS: 4, ARMOR: 4, TOTAL: 22

Druid: ATTACK: 2, CLASS SKILLS: 2, HIT DICE: 2, SAVES: 4, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 5, WEAPONS: 3, ARMOR: 1, TOTAL: 18

Fighter: ATTACK: 4, CLASS SKILLS: 0, HIT DICE: 3, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 0, WEAPONS: 10, ARMOR: 4, TOTAL: 23

Paladin: ATTACK: 4, CLASS SKILLS: 1, HIT DICE: 3, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 1, WEAPONS: 10, ARMOR: 4, TOTAL: 30

Ranger: ATTACK: 4, CLASS SKILLS: 3, HIT DICE: 2, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 1, SPELLS: 1, WEAPONS: 10, ARMOR: 3, TOTAL: 26

Rogue: ATTACK: 2, CLASS SKILLS: 3, HIT DICE: 1, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 4, SPELLS: 0, WEAPONS: 4, ARMOR: 1, TOTAL: 17

Sorcerer: ATTACK: 0, CLASS SKILLS: 2, HIT DICE: 0, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 13, WEAPONS: 4, ARMOR: 0, TOTAL: 21

Wizard: ATTACK: 0, CLASS SKILLS: 2, HIT DICE: 0, SAVES: 2, SKILL POINTS: 0, SPELLS: 12, WEAPONS: 2, ARMOR: 0, TOTAL: 18

Average CP for Core Classes: (23+28+22+18+23+30+26+21+18)/10 = 209/10 = 20.9

There is a problem with this though as the rogue and the wizard are the lowst rated classes but when you add in the rogues class abilities they will shoot up, but the wizard stays in the same place. We need to give the wizard more points some how but I've already spent 2 hours on this so someone else can work on that.

 

[Hollywood]

Re: Re: Expert class for PC

You can make this classes power level random by taking a base of 13 cp and adding 1d6 to that so that the player gets a random number of cp to spend.

Thats not a bad idea, maybe though 15 + d6 = CP.

The system itself has a hole in it though at the two main arcane casters come out as the two weakest classes when play shows that this is not so.

Yes. The test data was only to verify that the class could not be more powerful than existing classes. Since, the class is not supposed to allow one to select "magic" as part of the class, its ok that the arcane casters fall through the floor so to speak. To get magic, you'd have to multi-class as normal.

The system lumps bonus feats and class abilities together, those should be broken out separately to allow for a bit more flexibility.

Well the expert class really doesn't have any specific class abilities. Out of the core rules, I noted which "class abilities" I believe would best work as bonus feats without tons of reworking. Again, the idea is to be as self-contained as possible.

I would recommend making this point buy be class abilities not bonus feats.

Yes, I think the wording should be changed to reflect that they are class abilities, not necessarily bonus feats. It should also be noted that any Metamagic or Item Creation feats are not available, since you can not use CPs to purcahse ability to wield magic.

Should probably allow one exclusive class skill per cp spent on the number of skills and then pay this for extra exclusive skills, after all the expert template allows for two class skills.

Yes, although I am hesitant at giving out exclusive skills without buying them; after all they are exclusive.

Seems a bit skewed. How about 4 = simple weapon prof., 10 = simple & martial weapon prof., Limited selection = 1 point per 4 weapons. By your system I could take all but one simple weapon and all but on type of armor and pay nothing. Armor is 1 point per type.

Point taken, I'll have to revise this.

Here is a major flaw in the system. Bard, Paladin and Ranger pay the same amount for their spells. Well, the bard gets spells at 1st level while the paladin and ranger don't get them until 4th level. At 20th level a bard can cast 9th level spells while a Paladin or Ranger can only cast 4th (i think) level spells. I would lump the Bard in with the Cleric and Druid or even put them by themselves, which is probably the better option.

Yes, I was aware of this... but since the intention was not to allow the "expert pc" class to be able to use magic without, except through Use Magic Devices skill, multi-classing, I felt that I could roughly approx. the spell abilities. In all honesty, I could probably simply drop the ability to cast magic from consideration and not count the sorcerer/wizard when dealing with core abilities.

Here is what I can come up with.
SPELL ABILITY:
CP Ability
0 Cannot Cast Spells
1 Limited Spell selection above 4th level, 4th level spells only (Paladin, Ranger)
3 Limited Spell selection at first level, 6th level spells only (bard)
5 Full Selection of Divine Spells (Druid, Cleric)
8 Full Spell Selection of arcane spells (Wizard, Sorcerer)
1 Spontaneous Casting
4 Magical Familiar

Thats not too bad of idea, although would still prefer to force multi-classing; at least for the arcane spell users.

but I've already spent 2 hours on this

Well appreciate the time and feedback, thanks!

 

[Jens]

Well, I didn't just criticize without anything to back it up . I have made some flexible classes which I think can be dropped into any campaign using the PHB as canon without any major problems. They can be cownloaded HERE.

If you take a look at the adventurer, I think it's similar to what you have in mind. I'd appreciate comments, both about about whether to make a class engine or (more) flexible classes, and about my implementaion of flexibility.

(No surprise: First-best would be classless, but imo flexible classes is second-best, coming before flexible class generation )

 

[Hollywood]

If you take a look at the adventurer, I think it's similar to what you have in mind. I'd appreciate comments, both about about whether to make a class engine or (more) flexible classes, and about my implementaion of flexibility.

Well personally, I wouldn't mind ripping out the class system out of D&D and just leave it as a level system. That would be mean essentially ditching all the core classes, prestige classes, etc. and I think putting in something like talent trees from d20 Modern. It would also give an opportunity to do things like base the BAB on a basic fighting skill + weapon skill, rather than just an adhoc BAB per "class". This of course would change a lot of things, because if going that far I think such things as hit points, AC, to-hit, etc. would need to be redefined, etc.

Needless to say, I think its more of a hassle than anything... so thats why I was looking at building a class that has some flexibility in it and thats essentially, and approx., balanced with the other core classes and can interact with them.

 

[Drawmack]

You say that you don't want them to have the ability to cast magic. Well in that was you can't compare them to any class that casts magic. How about only giving them limited casting as per ranger, paladin and bard but not allow full fledged casting as per cleric, wizard and sorcerer. Then you can drop the analysis of the cleric, wizard and sorcerer from the system. This will make it much easier to balance the system over all.

 

[Hollywood]

Yet another good point. Check the new version that I posted and see if it works better.

You say that you don't want them to have the ability to cast magic. Well in that was you can't compare them to any class that casts magic. How about only giving them limited casting as per ranger, paladin and bard but not allow full fledged casting as per cleric, wizard and sorcerer. Then you can drop the analysis of the cleric, wizard and sorcerer from the system. This will make it much easier to balance the system over all.