Expertise and Incorporeal opponents

[Taralon]

In a recent game I was DMing, a player was being attacked by a Shadow. The attack was it's standard strength draining touch. The player used the expertise feat, taking a -5 on attack and thus gaining +5 to his AC.

At the time I wondered how you could use expertise to gain such a high bonus to AC vs an incorporeal attack. Yet I could think of no rule that said the player could not do this and I ruled in favor of the player.

Was this the right ruling?

Thanks!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Expertise grants a dodge bonus. Dodge bonuses are effective against incorporeal attacks.

If he'd used a feat that somehow granted an Armor bonus, then no joy.

-Hyp.

 

[Albereth]

Yes, from my reading that would be the correct ruling. The bonus to AC is listed in the feat as a Dodge Bonus. I believe that the attack of incorporeal creatures is in actuality a touch attack since they ignore natural armor, armor and shields. They do not bypass deflection bonuses or force, mage armor for example. No where does it state that they would bypass any dodge bonuses so I would allow that bonus to apply to the DC. A fully armored knight in plate mail is gonna need that dodge bonus to help stave off the attack of incorporeal opponents.

 

[Crothian]

You did good here. Expertise is a great feat and this shows the versatility of it.

 

[Valorian]

Expertise brings to mind, fancy sword work, etc. not exactly the same thing as fighting defensively (brings to mind more poking & dodging)...as the rules are written, expertise works perfectly fine, as it provides a dodge bonues, but I could see a DM "house ruling" that the fighter would need to have a +1 or better weapon to use it effectively against an incorporal creature (thus the fighter has some way to interact with the opponent).

In a recent game I was DMing, a player was being attacked by a Shadow. The attack was it's standard strength draining touch. The player used the expertise feat, taking a -5 on attack and thus gaining +5 to his AC.

At the time I wondered how you could use expertise to gain such a high bonus to AC vs an incorporeal attack. Yet I could think of no rule that said the player could not do this and I ruled in favor of the player.

Was this the right ruling?

Thanks!

 

[photon1966]

In my own game we had a similar problem arise but after carefully looking through the rules it is a Dodge bonus. You don't need to interact with the opponent, in fact your doing your best not to, ie avoiding them. From the Players handbook "When you use the attack action or full atack action, in melee,..." Now in the case of something incorperal, and you don't have a magic item then you simple state your actoin is to attack but don't bother rolling as there is no point but it does allow you a move equivalent or move action. You could even fight defensively, taking another -4 to hit and get +2 AC also a dodge bonus. So you'd end up with at maximum, -9 to hit, +7 AC dodge. Now I have seen it done by our Paladin Eric who was the main target, which kept him alive and allowed the other players to double team Erics' foes allies and then to help Eric. Eric didn't hit too much but he stayed alive to carry on the fight against evil for another day.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

So you'd end up with at maximum, -9 to hit, +7 AC dodge.

More if you have ranks in tumble. That goes to -9/+8 with 5 ranks, and -9/+9 with 15 IIRC.

 

[Hypersmurf]

More if you have ranks in tumble. That goes to -9/+8 with 5 ranks, and -9/+9 with 15 IIRC.

Of course, it's a fairly rare Eric the Paladin who has 5 ranks in Tumble

-Hyp.

 

[photon1966]

LOL

Yes totally off topic but your correct Eric the Paladin in his Breast Plate and Shield, Long sword Clearmoon in his other hand would not likely be doing any tumbling any time soon, though Anaelea our Elven Rogue/Fighter has been trying out that very combo though she lacks the 15 ranks in Dodge, it sure does help getting in those Flank attacks.

 

[bret]

More if you have ranks in tumble. That goes to -9/+8 with 5 ranks, and -9/+9 with 15 IIRC.

Where are the rules about 15 ranks of tumble improving the Fighting Defensively action?