Expertise replaces Defensive Fighting?

[phadeout]

When using combat expertise to take advantage of TWF shield bonuses (from TWD, Improved TWD, and Greater TWD - complete warrior), does CE replace the bonuses/negatives from fighting defensively, or do you have to take both sets of bonues/negatives. I.E. A 2nd Level Fighter uses CE to gain a bonus to his AC of +2, taking a -2 on attacks. MUST he ALSO take the +2 to AC and -4 to attacks from fighting defensively?

tx in advance

 

[sfedi]

When using combat expertise to take advantage of TWF shield bonuses (from TWD, Improved TWD, and Greater TWD - complete warrior), does CE replace the bonuses/negatives from fighting defensively, or do you have to take both sets of bonues/negatives. I.E. A 2nd Level Fighter uses CE to gain a bonus to his AC of +2, taking a -2 on attacks. MUST he ALSO take the +2 to AC and -4 to attacks from fighting defensively?

tx in advance

No, you don't HAVE to fight defensively when using Combat Expertise.

But i don't remember whether you could fight defensively while using Combat Expertise.

 

[SteelDraco]

You can do one or the other, or both. I don't see any reason why you'd just fight defensively if you had Combat Expertise, since it's universally better. But I know that you can do both at the same time to really boost your AC. Both give a dodge bonus to AC, which, by definition, stack with other dodge bonuses.

 

[phadeout]

Ok, but what about with the Two Weapon Defense feat and the +2 to AC "while fighting defensively", does using expertise with a +1/-1 count as "fighting defensively", or do you have to take the -4/+2 from the "actual" fighting defensively. (think all that makes sense).

So, if I have expertise, and say Greater Two Weapn Defense, I could take a -1 on my attack rolls, and add +7 to my AC (+1 from Expertise, +6 from Gtr TWD).

?

 

[Deset Gled]

Ok, but what about with the Two Weapon Defense feat and the +2 to AC "while fighting defensively", does using expertise with a +1/-1 count as "fighting defensively", or do you have to take the -4/+2 from the "actual" fighting defensively.

To get the benefit of the feat, you have to fight defensively (-4/+2). Combat Expertise doesn't count.

 

[ElectricDragon]

IMHO fighting defensively requires the bonus/penalty stated for fighting defensively. CE is more specialized and doesn't count as fighting defensively, though the line under Normal seems to suggest CE replaces fighting defensively; nowhere that I know of is this actually stated.

Suggestion: take 5 ranks of Tumble, that will increase the AC bonus from fighting defensively from +2 to +3 and the AC bonus from total defense from +4 to +6 (plus give you a +2 synergy on Jump and Balance).

I don't know which is correct; but this is how I would call it:

If CE and fighting defensively stack and can be used together; then CE is not a method of fighting defensively.

If you can only fight defensively OR use Combat Expertise; then CE is a method of fighting defensively and both the feat, Two Weapon Defense, and the skill, Tumble, need to be ammended to reflect this and fully state what they give to each kind of fighting defensively. (I would assume that the increases in AC bonus would remain the same).

Ciao
Dave

 

[Ranger REG]

They both stack, at least according to Jonathan Tweet and Sean K Reynolds. You don't have to use both of them, but if you're desperate about trying not to get hit as you withdraw out of a crowded battle, you should consider using them.

 

[green slime]

Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively stack. This was explicitly stated in a 3.0 FAQ , and is implicit because it is not stated anywhere that they do not stack.

Combat Expertise and the Total Defense standard action do not stack. This is explicitly stated in the SRD in the description of "Total Defense".

Using Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, and Greater Two-Weapon Defence, all stack. Both the penalties to hit, and the bonuses to AC.

 

[phadeout]

Ok, thanx that helps.

So, an official ruling on using TWD, would be that Combat Expertise DOES NOT count as fighting defensively for the extra bonus granted by TWD. To gain the bonus from TWD, you have be "fighting defensively" which is not the same as using CE.

So I could use Fighting Defesively, and TWD with a total of +4 to AC and -4 to attack (+5/-4 if you have tumble). If I use CE (+1/-1) and TWD, I only get +2 to AC (+1 Sheild, +1 Dodge).

Sounds good to me, and clears up the fact that in low magic campaigns you would never take sword and board over TWF/TWD (when using Greater TWD and having the feats to actually drop on it), but with this ruling (CE does not equal Fighting Defensively), Sword and Board is still a very good option.

(I don't need a S&B vs TWF vs TH discussion, been lurking and read all about them already Just need the CE = Fighting Defensively cleared up)

thanx guys (gals)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively stack. This was explicitly stated in a 3.0 FAQ , and is implicit because it is not stated anywhere that they do not stack.

It's explicit in the 3.5 PHB, p140...

Fighting Defensively: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. This bonus stacks with the AC bonus granted by the Combat Expertise feat.

-Hyp.