Expidition to Castle Ravenloft - Spoilers and Answers

[Eosin the Red]

Wow, I really dislike the Elfkin Anime von Strahd.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Kind of a moot point since Soth was yanked out of Ravenloft and only came back to Dragonlance long enough to die.

Actually, Lord Soth never went to Ravenloft. At least not according to Dragonlance canon.

 

[Hawken]

Ah, but according to TSR/WotC he did. If Hickman/Weis say no, then for a DL game, he didn't. But according to Ravenloft canon, Soth was there. Either way, moot point with Soth still being dead dead.

And for my 2 cents' worth, I also really dislike the elven anime look they gave Strahd. They should have stuck with his classic look overall and maybe just tweaked it here and there.

 

[Cam Banks]

Ah, but according to TSR/WotC he did.

We write nothing to say that he did, and WOTC approves it, so that's where it stands. Consider those two Soth books published under the Ravenloft imprint to be well-written "what if?" novels starring a popuiar character.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Nichols]

We write nothing to say that he did, and WOTC approves it, so that's where it stands. Consider those two Soth books published under the Ravenloft imprint to be well-written "what if?" novels starring a popuiar character.

Which two books are those? The three campaign setting books he had stats in (Black Box, Red Box, and Domains of Dread)? The adventure module he was the central character in (When Black Roses Bloom)? The two novels and a short story he was in (Knight of the Black Rose, Spectre of the Black Rose, and "Rigor of the Game")? The gazetteer of Sithicus that talks covers Soth as the previous darklord of the domain (in Ravenloft Gazetteer Vol. IV)? All the other interconnected references to how Lord Soth influenced things in Ravenloft? Heck, even the crappy Iron & Blood Ravenloft video game had Soth in it.

I think you'll find a lot of designers who worked on Ravenloft that disagree with your statements.

Chris Nichols

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I think you'll find a lot of designers who worked on Ravenloft that disagree with your statements.

His point is that the Dragonlance designers never said Soth went to Ravenloft and WotC approves of that. So maybe some Ravenloft designers say he went but, IMO, if the designers who created Soth say he didn't go, that's whose opinion counts. I could say that Luke Skywalker's father was an Ewok and I could write novels about it but I think it's pretty obvious that everyone is going to listen to George Lukas when he says I'm full of crap.

In truth, someone along the line probably thought it was a good idea but never bothered to check with the people who created Soth in the first place and now, in retrospect, it's realized it was a dumb move and being retconned.

 

[reanjr]

There's something I never really noticed: they radically changed the look of Strahd von Zarovich for the cover of Dragon #315, but Lord Soth in the back there looks like he always did, bucket head and all.

Am I the only person who didn't realize that was Strahd on the cover? It looked so much unlike Strahd, I assumed it was someone else.

 

[Nichols]

His point is that the Dragonlance designers never said Soth went to Ravenloft and WotC approves of that. So maybe some Ravenloft designers say he went but, IMO, if the designers who created Soth say he didn't go, that's whose opinion counts. I could say that Luke Skywalker's father was an Ewok and I could write novels about it but I think it's pretty obvious that everyone is going to listen to George Lukas when he says I'm full of crap.

In truth, someone along the line probably thought it was a good idea but never bothered to check with the people who created Soth in the first place and now, in retrospect, it's realized it was a dumb move and being retconned.

...OK, the problem being that Weiss and Hickman's original Dragonlance work was work for hire - they produced the material and TSR took ownership of it lock, stock, and barrel. Once W&H completed the original Dragonlance products and turned the manuscripts in to TSR, they had no further control over it. TSR could do whatever it wanted with it. This is simply how work for hire is done.

So, if TSR wanted to move Soth from one product line to other (and, obviously, they did) Weiss and Hickman didn't have any say in the matter, because they'd sold the rights to the character to TSR.

The fact that W&H chose to whine and cause a fuss does not mean that all the material about Soth in Ravenloft never happened. It just means W&H have chosen to be bad sports about it. They bad-mouthed TSR, wrote contradictory material in their novels, and finally got Soth sent back to Dragonlance by threatening to cut ties with TSR. And what do they do once they have Soth to use again? Kill him so that no one else can play with their toy again.

But the fact remains - Weiss and Hickman (and their fans) are the only ones who claim Soth was never in Ravenloft. TSR never said it, WotC never said it, and the Ravenloft designers over the years have sure as hell never said it.

In short, you're incorrect.

Chris Nichols

 

[Endur]

Did the original Strahd have levels in Wizard (necromancer or otherwise)? (As I recall, back then foes were typically not given levels in a class, so he likely was not, I presume.)

It seems odd to me that - both here and in the Dragon magazine - he has levels of Wizard but not one level of Fighter, as his history states that he had been a warrior / warlord for - what? - about 10-20 years?! Did he forget all that experience when he became a vampire? Perhaps he was level drained so low that he forgot exactly which class levels he was supposed to regain and accidentally / purposefully chose 'wizard' instead?

In 1e, Strahd had levels of wizard added onto vampire hit dice. But back then it would have been uncommon to add fighter levels to a vampire's hit dice. His wizard levels came after he became undead, as he sought to gain control over his cursed destiny.

How do you incorporate that history of fighter skills:

Several ways:
1) Add some fighter levels.
2) Decide the change to undead was severe enough that he changed his character class.
3) Decide that Strahd now has mental barriers to using martial weapons and wearing martial armor, and hasn't used such since he become undead.
4) Do something else (being vague here, because I have an idea that I don't feel like sharing in a public forum).


Ohh, I think posting Strahd's stats are fine. Just like posting Orcus's stats or Lord Soth's. Iconic characters can have thier stats posted.

 

[Felon]

His point is that the Dragonlance designers never said Soth went to Ravenloft and WotC approves of that. So maybe some Ravenloft designers say he went but, IMO, if the designers who created Soth say he didn't go, that's whose opinion counts. I could say that Luke Skywalker's father was an Ewok and I could write novels about it but I think it's pretty obvious that everyone is going to listen to George Lukas when he says I'm full of crap.

...OK, the problem being that Weiss and Hickman's original Dragonlance work was work for hire - they produced the material and TSR took ownership of it lock, stock, and barrel. Once W&H completed the original Dragonlance products and turned the manuscripts in to TSR, they had no further control over it. TSR could do whatever it anted with it. This is simply how work for hire is done.

Don't be rude about other posters, please - PS

I don't care much one way or the other, but clearly, if there's a bunch of published material out there with Soth in Ravenloft, and we're talking official material, not fan-fiction, then the guy was in Ravenloft. Equally clear is that Hickman & Weiss didn't actually own the character, so the George Lucas analogy falls apart.