Extra Spell = Any Spell List?

[Zephyrus]

I just had a converstation where it came up as to weather or not the Extra Spell feat that allows you to get a new spell known (or add a new spell to your spellbook) is limited to your classes spell list or not. It specifically cites that wizards can use it to get a spell they normally wouldent be able to research, however is this a case of allowing a specialist wizard to learn another spell in one of their banned schools or would this allow wizard to learn something like a Cure Spell or similar? It does require a feat to get and the spell in question must be of a level less than the highest level spell you can cast. But is this enough to allow it to choose from any spell list?

 

[gabrion]

I just had a converstation where it came up as to weather or not the Extra Spell feat that allows you to get a new spell known (or add a new spell to your spellbook) is limited to your classes spell list or not. It specifically cites that wizards can use it to get a spell they normally wouldent be able to research, however is this a case of allowing a specialist wizard to learn another spell in one of their banned schools or would this allow wizard to learn something like a Cure Spell or similar? It does require a feat to get and the spell in question must be of a level less than the highest level spell you can cast. But is this enough to allow it to choose from any spell list?

I allow it. Spending a feat like that is a big investment.

However, there is a good argument against this as well. Wizards can't cast spells from their prohibited schools, so one could argue that the feat only grants them knowledge of the spell and not the ability to cast it.

BTW,
[sblock]Is that Three Oaks as in Three Oaks River Valley? I remember travelling their once for a regional wrestling tournament.[/sblock]

 

[Zephyrus]

Is that Three Oaks as in Three Oaks River Valley? I remember travelling their once for regional wrestling tournament.

Not that I know of... I'm in the southwest most corner of Michigan.

 

[Thanee]

Well, let's put it this way. There is no rule telling you to learn a spell from your class list in the first place. So, technically, a wizard could learn any spell already, anyways.

However, they can only cast spells from their class list, and so it would be pretty pointless to learn anything else.

Extra Spell does not add spells to the wizard's class list, so it doesn't work.

If you want to allow it (as a house rule), that's certainly possible without any huge balance problems, but then it should be allowed for everyone, of course, not just for wizards.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Borlon]

I'm away from my books, but where does it say what kinds of spells a wizard can research? If he can normally research spells on the class spell list, and if Extra Spell allows the wizard to learn a spell that could not normally be researched, then he must be able to acquire spells with the feat that are not on his spell list.

Thanee's distinction is finer than the rules normally make, so I would hesitate in accepting it. A similarly fine distinction lead me to the conclusion that monks cannot take Improved Natural Attack, but a recent Sage Advice column allows it; arguing about the fine distinctions involved in that decision produced a 600 post thread. If someone is interested in that debate, I refer them to that thread. Let's just say that I could easily see the Sage contradict Thanee.

Actually, I would imagine this question has come up before. Is there a compilation of WotC Customer Service responses somewhere? Or perhaps it has already been addressed in a FAQ?

 

[Thanee]

If he can normally research spells on the class spell list...

Research is - quite obviously - mostly for spells that do not exist. At all.
Of course, you can also research existing spells, but that's usually not what you do.

I know where you are coming from, but you are wrong.

Most importantly, the part you refer to from the feat description does not even say, that wizards can learn spells they cannot normally research, it only says, that they usually do so with the feat. It only means (IMHO), that if wizards are somehow (within the campaign) prevented from using the normal rules for research and buying spells to write into their spellbook, i.e. if they never have time to do so, then they can use the feat to simply learn an extra spell with no time requirement. Not a very useful application, however, that's for sure.

Just look up the feat Arcane Disciple in Complete Divine, there you can see how a feat description must read, if it would allow non-class spells to be learned and cast.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, let's put it this way. There is no rule telling you to learn a spell from your class list in the first place. So, technically, a wizard could learn any spell already, anyways.

However, they can only cast spells from their class list, and so it would be pretty pointless to learn anything else.

Extra Spell does not add spells to the wizard's class list, so it doesn't work.

Now, if you're a sorcerer, on the other hand...

-Hyp.

 

[kyloss]

I take it as any arcane spell for arcane casters and divine for divine casters, similar to what they spell out in the expanded psionicshandbook for extra power allowing you to take extra powers not on your list- ie it could be used by a wizard to take bard spells, or clerics to take druid spells etc. That way you still obey the arcane / divine seperation but it still opens a few new possibilities.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Eh... I'm not sure if I'm understanding the discussion properly, but the short version of this is:

Extra Spell would add an additional spell known. That spell must be one that the wizard can cast; i.e., the Wizard couldn't take Flame Strike, because Flame Strike is Divine, and not Arcane. Can you burn the Feat to create a new spell? Sure, but that's DMO and not how the Feat was originally structured.

The trusty SRD has this to say:

Quoted from the SRD
Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

We also know that a Wizard can learn an unlimited number of spells; if the Feat reads as you say, that it allows a Wizard to research a spell she would not otherwise learn, then I would have to assume (without reading the Feat myself) that the wizard can, in fact, learn a spell from a banned school. Otherwise you're just taking any spell you could get in a much simpler way and blowing a feat for it, which is a perilously high cost considering the return.

Oh, and research is, quite obviously:

Quoted From the SRD
Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook.
Independent Research: A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

And, don't forget that all new spells must be DM approved. So in terms of how research works, this would be what the Feat is referring too. The SRD is extremely specific about there being no way to gain a spell from a prohibited school, but I would yield that if a Paladin can take a feat which allows them to take an additional class without losing Paladin status, then a Wizard should be able to take a Feat that allows them to learn a prohibited spell.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Thanee]

Now, if you're a sorcerer, on the other hand...

Then you would have to learn a spell from the Sor/Wiz class list... primarily...



Bye
Thanee