Faerie Fire & Hide in Plain Site

[lottrbacchus]

What change?

If your reading of the rules says someone can hide with a candle on their head, I'd say that the same reading would permit them to hide while Faerie Fired. If your reading of the rules says someone cannot hide with a candle on their head, I'd say that the same reading would preclude them hiding while Faerie Fired.

-Hyp.

Say a powerful, evil force fixed an ever-burning, dripless (unless they were reeeaaaallly evil) candle to your head. The candle would cast a shadow of itself, and thus you would always be within 10' of a shadow! Hmmm, unless the area was brightly lit already, in which case the candle wouldn't matter.

As far as the faerie fire goes- since you don't actually have to be in the shadow (just within 10' of one) for HIPS to work, I'd say faerie fire wouldn't prohibit you from using it. Since candles only dimly light 5' radius, any shadow that would allow you to HIPS would still exist (unless some very very strange lighting was going on, or your dm was being a complete *expletive*).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Say a powerful, evil force fixed an ever-burning, dripless (unless they were reeeaaaallly evil) candle to your head. The candle would cast a shadow of itself, and thus you would always be within 10' of a shadow! Hmmm, unless the area was brightly lit already, in which case the candle wouldn't matter.

Let's say I have the candle, but not Hide In Plain Sight.

The candle provides shadowy illumination, not bright light, so I have concealment - assuming the room isn't brightly lit. So I hide.

I roll well, so I can't be seen... but my opponents can still pinpoint my location. I'm in the square that's glowing.

Similarly, if I use Hide In Plain Sight, they can't see me... but there's still a square that's casting light. Dim light, and maybe in a brightly lit room they couldn't see it.

With Faerie Fire, though, it's easier - even in a brightly-lit room, when I Hide In Plain Sight so they can't see me, there's still a square that's glowing faintly purple, and that's the one I'm hiding in.

-Hyp.

 

[Solarious]

With Faerie Fire, though, it's easier - even in a brightly-lit room, when I Hide In Plain Sight so they can't see me, there's still a square that's glowing faintly purple, and that's the one I'm hiding in.

Correction - there's still a square that's glowing faintly purple/green/blue in your outline... and if that's good enough to defeat things like Displacement and Blur, it most certainly allows others to pinpoint your location, rendering the point of HiPS mostly moot in this situation.

 

[Dheran]

Correction - there's still a square that's glowing faintly purple/green/blue in your outline

Here's my own correction: the square is glowing, but your outline isn't discernible unless their Spot beats your Hide. Faerie Fire's description says it outlines the subjects, but doesn't state that that outline is immediately noticeable if someone is hiding. Hiding facilitated by HiPS isn't dependent on any of the "concealment normally provided by darkness, blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects".

It's easiest to treat a hidden person as effectively invisible. Here's how Invisibility deals with light sources, of which faerie fire is a case:

Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source).

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's easiest to treat a hidden person as effectively invisible. Here's how Invisibility deals with light sources, of which faerie fire is a case:

Well, the whole point of Faerie FIre vs Invisibility is that it is your outline that can still be seen glowing. That's why you get no miss chance - you don't just know approximately where they are (which square), you know exactly where they are - where their legs are, where their chest is, where their head is.

If you treat HiPS as invisibility, the mechanics are easy - Faerie Fire wins.

-Hyp.

 

[Zurai]

I agree. If you were actually hiding behind something with HiPS, things would be different - but the ENTIRE point of the ability is that you somehow are able to hide even though there's nothing suitable to hide behind. Your glowing outline would still be glaringly obvious, and your hide attempt would fail.

 

[lottrbacchus]

I agree. If you were actually hiding behind something with HiPS, things would be different - but the ENTIRE point of the ability is that you somehow are able to hide even though there's nothing suitable to hide behind. Your glowing outline would still be glaringly obvious, and your hide attempt would fail.

I read this as a logical flip-flop. The whole point of the ability is, as the name actually states, is hide in PLAIN SIGHT. You don't have to be in a shadow. You don't have to be behind anything. You already ARE in plain sight. You can, though the rules don't say it (and it would be hard to get anyhow), be wearing a neon-orange polyester jump suit and pointy green boots and yet still HIPS. The purple fairie fire, at this point, probably makes you harder to see, as people actively look away...

 

[Hypersmurf]

You can, though the rules don't say it (and it would be hard to get anyhow), be wearing a neon-orange polyester jump suit and pointy green boots and yet still HIPS.

If you're wearing a neon-orange polyester jump suit and turn invisible, nobody can see you.

If you're wearing a glowing neon-orange polyester jump suit and turn invisible, nobody can see you... but they can still see an orange jump-suit-shaped glow where you're standing.

-Hyp.

 

[Dheran]

Well, the whole point of Faerie FIre vs Invisibility is that it is your outline that can still be seen glowing.

I understand this answer, buy I'm not buying it. If you can't make out a burning candle held by someone who's invisible (just a square that's got sourceless white light), why would you see an outline from Faerie Fire of someone who's hiding (instead of just a square that's got sourceless green/blue/violet light)? While being hidden is mechanically similar to being invisble, it's not one of the things that Faerie Fire counters (darkness, blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects). I think Faerie Fire cast on a hidden person is just like a burning candle held by an invisible person: sourceless light, unless your Spot beats their Hide.

The issue, really, is whether your outline hides with you. I think it does, exactly as a candle's light becomes sourceless when "hidden" by an invisible person. If you can Hide a greatspear along with yourself, why should a pale nimbus be any harder to conceal?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I understand this answer, buy I'm not buying it. If you can't make out a burning candle held by someone who's invisible (just a square that's got sourceless white light), why would you see an outline from Faerie Fire of someone who's hiding (instead of just a square that's got sourceless green/blue/violet light)?

I don't think you'd see 'a square that's got sourceless white light', so much as you'd see a square that had white light radiating as if from a candle flame, but with no candle.

In the case of Faerie Fire, you'd see green light radiating as if from an outlined person... just with no person.

-Hyp.