Failing to meet prestige class requirements

[atom crash]

Originally Posted by CyberSpyder
Well, what the DMG actually says about prestige classes is as follows:

"...meaning that the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class." (Emphasis mine)

Similarly, under "Requirements" for each PrC, the exact wording used is "To qualify to become a...", as opposed to "To qualify to be a" or even "To qualify to advance as a."

Taken together, these two facts certainly suggest to me that the original intent was that requirements only mattered for taking the first level in the class. Obviously, that was radically shifted with Complete Warrior. It's a move that I don't feel makes a lot of sense.

By my way of thinking, taking the first level of a prestige class is a prerequisite for taking subsequent levels of that prestige class. If circumstances become such that you no longer qualify to enter a prestige class, then you also no longer qualify for those subsequent levels of that prestige class; how can you become a 2nd level Loremaster if you can't become a 1st level Loremaster.

So I see logic in the character losing those class features in such a case. Complete Warrior just makes it an explicit ruling.

 

[gabrion]

Well the text from CW does fall under the heading "The Martial Prestige Classes," so I don't see why my archmage should worry about it.

Keep in mind that the writers of CW have a definition handy of a martial character:

The authors of this book define a martial character as any character that focuses his or her development on improving his or her combat capabilities, particularly those capabilities that emphasize melee or ranged combat over spellcasting, skill use, or other abilities common to a D+D character).

 

[Peter Gibbons]

For what it's worth, I use a houserule that all Supernatural (Su) and Spell-like (Sp) abilities granted by a PrC are lost if the prerequisites are lost, but any Extraordinary (Ex) or "mundane" abilities (including BAB, HP, Skills, Saves, Spellcasting [if it's +1 to existing], and even bonus feats, etc.) are kept. In no case can a character take a level of a PrC (first or otherwise) if he does not meet the prerequisites when it's time to level up.

This is the ruling I favor. In some cases, I would even make an exception for the (Su) and (Sp) abilities.

 

[Anubis]

Well, the primary source between CW and the DMG is the DMG, meaning anything in CW is optional only and not part of the normal rules. That would lean toward not losing your benefits unless specifically noted as such.

If, however, this is an actual rule, I would certainly house rule otherwise as it makes no sense in most cases.

Rather, any abilities that come from sheer training (sneak attack, Ex abilities, things that are learned) should be retained, while unnatural abilities (Su and Sp abilities, smite evil, things that are a part of a type of power) would be lost.

I consider this different from feats, as it does make sense to lose a feat if you lose a prerequisite. Well, you don't lose the feat, you just lose the use of the feat. It makes perfect sense to not be able to power attack anymore if you no longer have Str 13, as it's a physical requirement. I would say, however, that maybe as a house rule, losing prerequisites should not cause you to lose the feat itself, but just prevent you from using it, which would mean you'd still have those feats as far as qualifying for other stuff goes.

I would likely never allow feat-swapping except by a very powerful spell like wish. In the loremaster case, as DM I would just rule that a player isn't allowed to swap out any spell that's required in order to have the prestige class in the first place. Rule 0 is handy in these cases. The actual rules are too unclear to figure them out, and the actual rules would probably not be very good, so I'd just house rule all the way.

 

[IcyCool]

Well, the primary source between CW and the DMG is the DMG, meaning anything in CW is optional only and not part of the normal rules. That would lean toward not losing your benefits unless specifically noted as such.

Actually, it would be more accurate to say that if the rule in CW contradicts that in the DMG, then the DMG takes precedence via the Primary Source Rule, and the CW is in error. If the rule isn't present in the DMG, then CW is the Primary Source for that rule, and takes precedence.

 

[CyberSpyder]

By my way of thinking, taking the first level of a prestige class is a prerequisite for taking subsequent levels of that prestige class. If circumstances become such that you no longer qualify to enter a prestige class, then you also no longer qualify for those subsequent levels of that prestige class; how can you become a 2nd level Loremaster if you can't become a 1st level Loremaster.

That's certainly a tortuous method of thinking. You can become a 2nd level Loremaster if you're a 1st-level Loremaster. You don't have to take the 1st level again in order to become 2nd level.

Actually, it would be more accurate to say that if the rule in CW contradicts that in the DMG, then the DMG takes precedence via the Primary Source Rule, and the CW is in error. If the rule isn't present in the DMG, then CW is the Primary Source for that rule, and takes precedence.

However, it doesn't contradict - it merely adds more conditions. The rules put forth in the DMG state that prerequisites must be filled before the first level in the class can be taken. The rules put forth in CW state that if prerequisites are at any time lost, all special abilities of that class are also lost. There is no contradiction between those two statements, so both can apply simultaneously.

 

[LokiDR]

This is a rule in a game, and that is its purpose. CW 16 was written to prevent cheese, and should be maintained for the same reason.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm struggling with this issue right now actually. I am making a gnome wizard character. I want his background to be that he is of good alignment, but experimented with shadow magic for a time which led him down a darker path for a brief period. After a while, he redeemed himself and is back to being good again.

To reflect his dark days, he has a level of Shadow Adept (Player's Guide to Faerun), which requires a non-good alignment.

The first level of Shadow Adept grants three colorful feats.

However, I don't want him to have to loose those three feats when his alignment changes back to good. I don't think it is appropriate story-wise, and I don't think it makes sense that he unlearns those feats, and I think there is a fairness issue there. And yet, that's how the Complete Warrior rule says it should work.

 

[IcyCool]

There is no contradiction between those two statements, so both can apply simultaneously.

Exactly.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

However, I don't want him to have those three feats when his alignment changes back to good. I don't think it is appropriate story-wise, and I don't think it makes sense that he unlearns those feats, and I think there is a fairness issue there. And yet, that's how the Complete Warrior rule says it should work.

Personally, I think it makes complete sense for you to lose those feats. They are granted to you because you have dedicated yourself to the Shadow Weave, and Shar allows you to use her weave in a particular way.

When you become good, you are naturally opposed to everything Shar wants. Accordingly, she doesn't let you use her weave any more.