Fair to swap out followers?

[Dolza]

A few levels ago one of my players, a Paladin of Clangeddin/Fighter/Kensai took leadership and attracted a cohort. The cohort i gave him was a lawful neutral character who was trying to learn/follow the example of a Lawful Good character to change her ways.

The problem has been this, the character doesn't exactly act like what i percieve a Paladin to be all the time. He is hesitant in battle if he thinks his nifty armor or weapon might get hurt, he doesnt support his church or his leige that he's sworn his Kensai oath to. He had his current follower for 2 levels and was very stingy with rewarding her with gold or items etc, even though she saved the party's bacon a time or two. The other party members are quicker to help supply her with cash etc.

He rationalizes all this by saying things like...."I'm a dwarf and dwarves are greedy and love gold!" or he wont run to the front line and tell the group "i didn't want to risk me weapon boys!" in my opinion, this is crazy considering he's a cleric of Clangeddin! They're the first to rush into battle no matter what the odds.

So, here is what I'm thinking of doing. His current cohort is going to leave him in search of someone who is more of an example of what i see as Lawful Good. Then his church is going to provide him with a new follower that is not battle tested but knows how a representative of Clangeddin would act. I've mentioned this to him during the game but it hasn't seemed ot matter much to him. I guess my questions are

Is it fair to change out followers based on RP reasons?
Should i begin to take away paladin and/or Kensai benefits if he's not behaving as someone of those classes would?
Should his Leadership score take a hit for a follower leaving him?
How do i explain a Cleric of Clangeddin that knows how to act but would need to follow the player around?

thanks for your help

dolza

 

[Crothian]

Sounds like a great idea. Does he have spells for the Paladin? IF so then donb't let him pick his spells have the diety give him spells that fit the way he needs to act. If that doesn't work then let him have warnings in dreams, profits, something before you start taking away class abilities. I wouldn't have the leadership score take a hint, but have some of his other folowers express their concern over his actions. The Cleric of Clangeddin should act as a father figure /mentor. He will advise and critize the actions of the character.

 

[Shane_Leahy]

What if the new follower is a grizzled old veteran, ready to set down his axe and retire to the meadhalls but before he goes he wants to pass along what he has learned to the next generation. Now he is a bit gruff and hard around the edges and because of this, the church does not want him teaching at the church but sending him out to possibly wipe someone into shape...

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

It sounds like fair thing to do about the follower, but I would be careful with trying to change the PCs behavior. This is once again getting into the sticky issue of how a player perceives how to run a paladin versus how the DM sees it. I would make sure that you and the player have a good discussion about the issues behind all this. You don't want to be seen as dictating to the player how he should run his character. You can uphold certain standards and expectations based upon a mutual understanding of the oaths taken by the paladin, but they need to be clearly understood by both of you.

 

[Dolza]

Write up a code then?

Ok, to answer a question and ask some more:

No he can not cast spells. Even though he is a 4th level paladin, his wis is not high enough.

I dont want to force the player to act in a certain way however, in the description of the Kensai it specifically states it is a very strong PrC and needs to have some RP limitations placed on it. Also, i feel like i've been pretty clear in what i expect from a paladin and he has not taken the hint.

I like the grizzled veteran idea. He would be well respected within the church and ready to teach the younger generation a thing or two. thanks Shane_Leahy!

Would it be better if we worked together to write up a Code for this character?
Something that talks about ways to act that are pleasing to Clangeddin?
What about something that says he need's to tithe to his church or leige?
Does anyone know where i might find something to work off, the write up in the phb seems overly simple and not tailored to Clangeddin?

thanks
dolza

 

[Arnwyn]

Would it be better if we worked together to write up a Code for this character? Something that talks about ways to act that are pleasing to Clangeddin?

It's always a good idea to work with the player if you can.

What about something that says he need's to tithe to his church or leige?

Maybe - it depends on how you want your campaign world (and Clangeddin's church) to work. We do so in our campaign (10% of monetary wealth for paladins and clerics), and the church looks kindly upon such tithes. But that's just our campaign - no guarantee it'll work for yours (or anyone else's).

Does anyone know where i might find something to work off, the write up in the phb seems overly simple and not tailored to Clangeddin?

While it's a 2e FR book, Demihuman Deities has, by far, the most detailed write up of Clangeddin's faith you'll find in any book, anywhere.

 

[Dolza]

Tithing etc.

Well i had pretty much taken it for granted that people would be tithing to the church. It provides lots of services to its parishoners. Also, when the group has done jobs or missions for different churches in the past the rest of the party has been good about compensating the church for any help the recieve.

Thanks for the advice guys, i guess i'll try to talk to the player and work out something with a code or set of standards for him. In the other game we play together, he resisted somethign like this mightily, so he may just want to scrap the character and bring in something new. That would be dissapointing but i dont have much choice.

A slightly off topic question i've had for a while: are most of the people in your parties the same level? is it "fair" for someone to be a different level from everyone else?

thanks
dolza

 

[Arnwyn]

A slightly off topic question i've had for a while: are most of the people in your parties the same level? is it "fair" for someone to be a different level from everyone else?

For us: no, they're not always at the same level. Characters die, and (in our campaign) they come in at a lower level (sometimes much lower).

It depends on how you want to define "fair". If a character is forced to arbitrarily come in at a lower level than anyone else, then I'd say it's not fair. If the character got killed (especially due to his own stupidity), then it's more than fair. (All IMO, of course - I know many others' MMV. But I don't care about them.)

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

A slightly off topic question i've had for a while: are most of the people in your parties the same level? is it "fair" for someone to be a different level from everyone else?

thanks
dolza

Parties I have been in or DMed have usually all been within 1 level of each other. It is not uncommon to have a new PC join at a slightly lower level in the event of character death, or a player tiring of a character and wanting a change. Too much level separation between different party members causes a few problems. One is that the higher level characters have more opportunity to shine, taking the spotlight from lower level ones. The other is that it becomes more difficult to structure encounters that are a challenge to the higher level members without being deadly for the lower level ones. It can be done, but it takes a little more care to do it well.

 

[Ukyo the undead]

A few levels ago one of my players, a Paladin of Clangeddin/Fighter/Kensai took leadership and attracted a cohort. The cohort i gave him was a lawful neutral character who was trying to learn/follow the example of a Lawful Good character to change her ways.

(...)
So, here is what I'm thinking of doing. His current cohort is going to leave him in search of someone who is more of an example of what i see as Lawful Good.

You can ask another player with a LG character if he/she wants a follower, and rule that the paladin´s follower finally found the reasons of the "Good" side... in another character´s example.

I guess my questions are

Is it fair to change out followers based on RP reasons?dolza

I think so, since players action have consequences, and NPCs should not be treated as simple uninteligent entities used as burden carriers( Donkeys.).

Should i begin to take away paladin and/or Kensai benefits if he's not behaving as someone of those classes would?dolza

Yes, but only after a lot of in game warnings are made, unless he makes a huge mistake( like crossing the street to kick a cat).

Should his Leadership score take a hit for a follower leaving him?dolza

yes, I think, isnt it one of the modifiers in the leadership table?