Fairly radical new combat rules

[General Barron]

Hey all. I've been musing over some pretty large changes to the combat system. I'm not really planning on using these rules in my campaign, but I'll post it here for your thoughts. Keep in mind I haven't fully flushed out the rules yet.

Purpose: The idea is to (a) stay within the current rules system as much as possible, (b) provide more of a numerical difference between various weapons, (c) provide more of a numerical difference between various different warrior classes, (d) make the combat rules a little less abstract, and a little more detailed, (e) fix a few unrealistic aspects of the system, yet (f) simplify a few little quirks in the current system.


Armor: Physical armor (AC bonuses) from armor/magic items/natural AC will be converted into DR/- at a 1:1 rate. That is, AC bonus now becomes DR. Other AC modifiers (dex, dodge, deflect, etc) stay as is.


Character Statistics: BaB is removed, and in its place, each character/monster gets the 4 following combat statistics. For now, assume that each of them progress at about the same rate as BaB used to, although slight variances would be ironed out between the classes:

Attack:This represents how good a character is at getting past an opponents defenses, and landing blows in combat. This is used just like the old BaB; the exceptions being where the below statistics take over some parts of BaB's former function. Attack is modified by Str.
Power:This represents how effectively a character can cause damage with weapons. This is added on to your weapon's damage roll on a successful hit. For completeness, this stat is modified by Str, and the weapon's damage is no longer (same effect for Str modifier but it just changes where stuff is written/calculated).
Defense: This represents how well a character can block or dodge an opponent's attack. This stat is added to your character's AC, and is modified by Dex. To get this bonus, you must be aware of your opponent and able to move freely.
Quickness: This represents how quickly a character can find an opening and make an attack. This stat is modified by Dex. I haven't fully figured out what all this will do. For one, it will be used to calculate the number of iterative attacks a character gets, instead of BaB (although the actual attacks are still made using the penalized 'attack' rating). It also seems like it should affect initiative somehow, letting you attack before your opponents if you have much more quickness then they do. But adding it to initiative wouldn't make sense without having some comparable number for spellcasting/other actions.


Weapon Statistics: Weapons would now have more statistics as well.
Damage/weight/catagory/crit: These stats would all work normally.
Combat Modifiers: Weapons can have modifers to each of the 4 combat statistics. Generally these modifiers would be no more than +/-2, although most weapons would have no modifiers at all. A greatsword, for example, would be slow to attack and difficult to block with, so it might have -2 quickness and -1 defense. A parrying dagger/main gauche made specifically for defense might give a +1 defense.
If you are weilding two weapons, then their bonuses/penalties only apply to attacks made with that specific weapon, with the following exceptions: defense bonuses, which are only added if that weapon is NOT used to attack in that round. Defense penalties are always added, whether or not the weapon is used. Attack penalties from one weapon stack on to the other (cumbersome weapons get in the way of fighting in general). Attack bonuses do not.
Shields: Shields are now treated just like any other weapon, although they would have relatively high defense bonuses.
Non-proficiency: Being non-proficient in a weapon/shield now results in a -4 penalty to ALL of the combat modifiers (attack, damage, defense & quickness).
Reach: All weapons will also now have a statistic called "reach" (or "length", to prevent doubling up terms). This is a number, generally from 0-4, representing how far away from the weilder the 'business end' of the weapon is. For example: Knives and fisticuffs would have 0; short swords and hand axes 1; full swords and axes might have 2; shorter spears and greatswords might have 3; and long spears might have 4.
When attacking someone, you get a bonus or penalty equal to (your reach - their reach). So a reach 1 sword attacking a reach 0 dagger would get a +1 to hit. The dagger attacking the sword would get a -1 to hit. Longer weapons mean that you can keep an opponent at bay further away from your body, making it harder for him to hit you, and easier for you to hit him safely.
If you want, you can 'close in' on your opponent--meaning, you take your chances and try to get within his weapon's swing. Doing so is a move action and provokes an AoO (on a successful hit you might get forced back--undecided). However, once you have closed in, reach bonuses/penalties are suddenly switched: so the reach 0 dagger now would get a +1 bonus to hit vs the reach 1 sword. Conversely, a 'closed in' person can 'back out', which is also a move action that provokes an AoO.
For every 3 units of reach, a person gets an extra square of reach on the battle grid (normal "reach").
For 2WF, you use the appropriate weapon's reach when making attacks with that weapon. When your opponent attacks you, use the best reach of the 2 weapons (normally the longer weapon, but it changes when the opponent closes in).


Feats: Some feats would have to be reworked, and others added. The details have not all been flushed out. For one, new feats would be added that give bonuses when fighting with only 1 single-handed weapon (adding Defense, most likely). 2WF might have to be adjusted to deal with shields, or a new feat line introduced (preferable).


Reasoning:

The expanded combat statistics make for much more variation between classes combat-wise. Currently, most classes progress in BaB at a very similar rate, making fighters and other warriors that much less special. The new statistics could progress at different rates: for example, fighters might progress quickly in most areas and moderately in others; rouges might progress faster in defense and quickness than in damage or attack. Wizards might progress normally in defense, but even slower in attack, quickness and damage. The numbers haven't been ironed out, but it is easy to see that they allow for much more variety between class types, and even between warriors.

The power statistic might seem a little... powerful, since at level 20 a fighter might add +20 to each successful hit. It might be preferable to instead add 1d(Power) damage, but there are a limited number of dice types. However, power is used to offset the massive DR that higher-level monsters/characters would have due to high natural AC or magical armor. It also makes sense realistically: an expert fencer is going to do more harm with a rapier than a novice one.

Changing armor AC to DR almost works perfectly by itself. For low-mid levels, battles should play out similarly to the norm, although a defense stat is really needed at higher levels to offset the attack stat. Very high AC monsters like dragons might need to be reworked to fit in this system however.

Weapon combat modifiers allow for much more variety between weapons, instead of just 2: damage/catagory. Light, fast weapons can be given bonuses to quickness, which means a character might be able to make an extra attack when weilding one. It also makes sense that some weapons would be easier to block with than others, such as a sword vs an axe. My goal isn't to make all weapons equally useful in combat, however, but to rather make the weapons model their real-world advantages/disadvantages more accurately. It also makes shields act like any other weapon, which simplifies things and makes more sense.

Reach is adapted from the RPG "Shadowrun". It adds a nice element of realism when fighting weapon vs weapon. Naturally, if someone has a long, sharp object pointed at your face, you are going to want to stay back. If you have a shorter sharp thing, then it will be harder for you to get to your opponent. The actual reach numbers might need to be adjusted some so that the differences between them are just right. It should be pretty advantageous to have a sword vs a dagger--but at the same time, it should be worth the risk for the dagger-weilder to close in on the swordsman.


Final word:
Well, that's about it. I'm sure I forgot something, but that's where your comments would come in. Let me know what you think/suggestions/problems/comments/etc. Keep in mind that it is still a work in progress though.

-GB

 

[Quickleaf]

It seems like Power/Attack/Quickness/Defense could all be treated like skills. I would assume each of the SRD classes gets a number of "combat skill points" equal to their current BAB+1. Thus a 1st level fighter could have +1 attack, +1 dodge (or any combination). This nicely simulates d20 classes which provide a built-in defense modifier to the class, and it allows a greater degree of customization, such as barbarians who are crackshots with a bow (Attack maxed out) and armor-clad paladins who count on a flurry of blows to fell their opponents (Quickness maxed out).

Have you checked out woodelf's alternate weapon proficiency system? It may be more cinematic than what you're thinking but I like it alot. The alternate rules basically make weapon damage based on a character's skill level, and allow characters of correspondingly greater skill to attempt more and more amazing tricks with their weapons.

 

[genshou]

Hmmm, this idea has some potential. I'll have to read through it a bit more when I'm not sick (and drunk off of Nyquil ), but so far I like the "reach" factor you've given to weapons. I use a similar system in my parrying AC bonus system.

One problem with armor as DR is that it tends to make characters too impervious to ranged weaponry at higher levels. You have to wait for a critical hit to even deal damage, and then you have to score dozens more just to take them down. I've found armor as DR only works effectively in vitality/wounds systems. It's something for you to consider about how powerful you want armor to be.

 

[3d6]

He's also adding a huge bonus to damage with the "power" attribute. Ranged weapons shouldn't have much trouble getting through DR.

 

[General Barron]

Thanks for the replies. Some good input so far. I especially like Quickleaf's idea on combat stat progression. I'll even expand upon it a bit. As for high DR making a wearer impervious to ranged attacks, I have 3 points: first, I was watching a show on the History Channel, where they made a breastplate at tested it vs various weapons. When they hit it with the equivalent of an arrow, it barely left a dent. So someone wearing full plate would be very difficult to injure with arrows IRL. Second, the 'power' attribute gives mid-high level warriors extra damage which helps to overcome the DR. Third, some weapons can be made specifically to penetrate armor, which is something I forgot to mention in my first post. More rules follow:



Statistics Progression: The following covers how a character/monster advances in the new combat stats (attack/defense/power/speed).

Whenever a character would gain a point of BaB, he instead gains a number of points that he can 'spend' to increase the combat stats of his choice. No unmodified stat can be higher than his BaB would be, however. The number of points a character gets to spend for each increase in BaB depends on his BaB progression:

Good BaB: 3 points/BaB increase
Average BaB: 2 points/BaB increase
Poor BaB: 1 point/BaB increase

Fighters: If you feel that fighters are under-powered, then you can make fighters gain an extra point on each one of their 'empty' levels where they gain no special ability (3, 5, 7, etc). This reinforces the fighter's supposed role as the best class at weapons fighting.

Weapon Statistics: Additions/changes to the first post:

Combat Modifiers: Most weapons that provide defense modifiers do NOT provide this modifier against ranged attacks. Shields are an obvious exception.

Reach: The attack bonus/penalty for reach differences between weapons should be 2x the difference. 1x the difference does not provide enough of a bonus/penalty to make it worth risking an AoO in order to close with the enemy.

Reach & fighting space (optional): Slashing a 5-foot greatsword about in a 5-foot wide hallway just isn't going to work. Or using a 3-foot longsword either (when adding in the length of an arm). In such cramped situations, one will have to fight with his weapon in an abnormal and less effective manner; or would be better off using a weapon designed for close quarters.

When using a weapon that attacks with a chopping/swinging motion, a character must have (reach x 2.5') clear space around him to fight normally. If the space is cramped (walls, furniture, allies, etc in the way), then the character recieves an attack penalty of -2 per 'extra' unit of reach his weapon requires beyond what is available.

Eg: A reach 1 weapon requires a 2.5' clear space on all sides of the wielder (i.e. a 5' diameter). If the wielder was fighting in a 5' wide hallway (1 square wide), he would take no penalty to attacks. In the same hallway, someone wielding a reach 2 weapon (requiring 5' clear space) would take a -2 attack penalty; a reach 3 weapon would take a -4 penalty, and so on.

Armor check penalty: ALL weapons (not just shields) now have an ACP stat (doing a backflip while holding a greatsword is bound to be difficult). Generally the ACP would be equal to the weapon's reach, although particularly bulky weapons (such as shields) have larger penalties. A weapon's ACP ONLY applies when the weapon is in a character's hand; it does not apply if it is sheathed or across the back. Also, bear in mind that a character can drop his weapon as a free action before performing a skill that would be penalized by holding it.

Armor Piercing: This stat represents the weapon's ability to penetrate armor. Normally it is 0, except for weapons specifically designed for this purpose. On a successful attack, the victim's DR from armor is reduced by the weapon's AP for calculating damage (on that attack only). Crossbows are a good example of a weapon that would have a high AP. For ranged weapons, the weapon's AP is reduced by -1 for each range increment from the attacker to the target.

Fighting Styles: Below is new information on how various fighting styles work under this system:

2 weapon fighting: This works as described in the first post.

2 handed weapons: When using a 2-handed weapon, no special rules apply. A new rule is that a character can wield a 1-handed weapon, such as a longsword, in 2 hands. Doing this provides a +2 quickness bonus to the weapon, due to the extra control afforded by using 2 hands. Light weapons are too small (eg: daggers) or light (eg: rapiers) to gain any benefit from being wielded in this way.

Double weapons: Double weapons only count as 1 weapon (not 2) for purposes of combat statistic modifiers. For example, a double weapon that provides a +1 to defense gives a total defense bonus of +1 (not +1x2=+2 for both sides of the weapon), even if both sides aren't used to attack in one round. If only 1 side of that weapon was used in combat, then the wielder would get his +1 defense bonus (but if both sides were used, he would get no bonus).

Unarmed: Unarmed combat is treated just like normal melee attacks. If the attacker does not have the Improved Unarmed Combat feat, then he provokes an AoO whenever he attacks. Even with this feat, the attacker still provokes an AoO if he tries to "close" in on his opponent (see Weapon Reach).
Normally unarmed attacks are reach 0, but the DM might allow the Improved Unarmed Combat feat to grant a +1 reach bonus to unarmed attacks (representing the use of kicks). The character can choose whether or not to use this reach bonus (depending on if he is closed in on his opponent or not).

1 handed weapons: A normal character is going to be at a disadvantage when leaving one hand empty in combat. For a skilled warrior however, the free hand would allow for more freedom of movement to dodge attacks, or could be used to support the other edge of his weapon when blocking a particularly strong blow. This will be represented by feats below.

Feats: Below are new or modified feats for this system:

Single weapon fighting [general]: When fighting with a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, you are able to use the extra mobility provided to better defend yourself.
Prereq: +1 BaB
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to AC vs melee attacks during round when you do not use your empty hand for any other action.
Normal: There is no defense benefit to having an empty hand.
Special: Some DMs might want to give this feat to all classes with Good BaB progression for free at 1st level. This allows the player to make a character that fits his concept, without having to sacrifice a feat. This +1 AC could otherwise easily be obtained by using a buckler or parrying dagger in the other hand, therefore this feat isn't really much of an advantage.
A fighter can take this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved single weapon fighting [general]: You are even better at gaining an advantage from having a free hand in combat.
Prereq: +4 BaB, Single weapon fighting
Benefit: You gain an additional +1 bonus to AC vs melee attacks during round when you do not use your empty hand for any other action. Additionally, you gain a +1 quickness to your weapon hand.
Normal: There is no defense benefit to having an empty hand.
Special: A fighter can take this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Greater single weapon fighting [general]: You are a master at fighting with one empty hand.
Prereq: Fighter level 8, Improved single weapon fighting
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 bonus to AC vs melee attacks during round when you do not use your empty hand for any other action. Additionally, you gain another +1 quickness to your weapon hand.
Normal: There is no defense benefit to having an empty hand.
Special: A fighter can take this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

(EDIT-modified prereqs for feats)

 

[genshou]

You might want to keep a close eye on the Power attribute when playtesting these rules. Since normal D&D allows for a high-level character to deal additional damage each round through multiple attacks and magic added to their weapon, adding even more damage is dangerous. Also, you might want to limit any given attribute on a character to equaling their level, or perhaps three-quarters their level (minimum one). That way, you don't get a 20th-level Fighter with 35 points in Power. After all, adding in the 15 damage that character could easily get with just weapon damage + Str bonus, that's 50 damage right there! Certainly not realistic or balanced in any sense. I'd kill for the ability to do that much damage per hit; even with armor my opponents would be jelly. And against monsters, who have no armor... :\

You also might want to consider the fact that raw damage is more valuable than some of the other abilities, so getting it on a one-for-one basis might be the problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[Baragos]

Make Power a 2 for 1 stat should do the trick me thinks...and yes, cap the stats to either Level or something similar (perhaps treat it as a class skill for people with Good BAB and cross-class for others...)

 

[monboesen]

You should also be very sure that you don't try this on casual players. It will be way to complex for people who don't really really like rules.

Your rules looks Ok to me so far, except for the damage potential and the connected potential massive damage saves.

Additionally if you are going for a more realistic feel be vary of making the one handed style competetive. I don't believe it would be in the real world. People would either use both hands on their weapon or use a shield.

 

[Lobo Lurker]

I think the Power attribute would be fine... if no one got multiple attacks. Possible (somewhat complicated) solution? Add in another weapon quality that nerfs the power statistic.

Example:
2H Weapons (100% use of power stat)
1H Weapons (75% use of power stat)
Light Weapons (50% use of power stat)

Also, I haven't tested this or anything but I think that by splitting the BAB up into 4 parts and deriving AC from it you'll find yourself with underpowered characters. Someone correctly me if I'm wrong I haven't run any calculations or anything; this is just an untested observation. Why not have all statistics improve at .5 per level IF that particular statistic is not already higher than that.

Also, no one seems to have addressed size modifiers as they relate to this combat system. I'd imagine that an ogre wouldn't be all that quick or accurate but he'd hit really, really hard (more mass... remember, all things being equal in a fist fight, the larger man will win). Conversly, a halfling wouldn't really hit all that hard, but he'd likely be harder to hit. He'd also suffer from a reduced reach.

As far as weapon characteristics go, I'd forego the 'if your weapon has 3 or more 'reach' points than your opponant you get a 5' square on him. In its place simply give certain weapons the a 5' melee range (longspear and polearms, I'm looking at you).

This combat system looks interesting though. I'd love to try it out if I actually had a play group.

Thinking about what things can modify which attributes & characteristics...

MW Enhancement Bonuses
- Limited to +1 (affecting any combination of attack, power, defense, and/or quickness)

MAGICAL Enhancement Bonuses
- +1 through +5 (affecting any combination of attack, power, defense, and/or quickness)

Special Material Effects
- Mithril: 1/2 weight, +1 to quickness, makes any weapon finessable; -1 ACP
- Adamantine: x2 weight (?), increases weapon's weight catagory (i.e., light -> 1H -> 2H), +1 power; +1 DR per weight catagory of armor (+1 Light (& light sheilds), +2 Medium (and large sheilds), +3 Heavy).

Defense Modifiers: Deflection bonuses, Luck bonuses, Dodge bonuses, Competance bonuses, & Intuition bonuses.
DR Modifiers: Enhancement bonuses (masterwork and magical), Competance bonuses, & Material bonuses.

If classes were preset or had default point allocations, what would they be? Something like the below (but not locked into such, just as default allocations) maybe?

Barbarian: Attack (high), Power (high), Defense (low), Quickness (medium)
Fighter: Attack (high), Power (high), Defense (medium), Quickness (low)
Ranger: Attack (high), Power (low), Defense (high), Quickness (high)
Paladin: Attack (high), Power (medium), Defense (medium), Quickness (medium)
Cleric: Attack (medium), Power (medium), Defense (high), Quickness (low)
Rogue: Attack (medium), Power (high), Defense (medium), Quickness (high)
Wizard: Attack (low), Power (low), Defense (low), Quickness (low)
Sorceror: Attack (low), Power (low), Defense (low), Quickness (low)
Bard: Attack (medium), Power (medium), Defense (medium), Quickness (medium);
- As bards are the Jack of all Trades/Master of None
Monk: Attack (medium), Power (low), Defense (high), Quickness (high)

 

[General Barron]

Thanks for more feedback. I am a bit weary about the power stat, although it doesn't really start 'breaking down' the game until after 10th level. Think about it: if an opponent is wearing full plate (DR 9), then a power of 10 only adds +1 damage.

If you aren't wearing armor in combat.... then you're kinda screwed, but that seems fine to me. Actually, some variant of the rules in Unearthed Arcana that give PC's natural AC bonuses as they go up in levels might be a good idea to help balance power (maybe +1 DR / 4 levels).

Another power alternative I was thinking was to make it add a random amount of damage to attacks: (1dPower). So having 10 power would add 1d10 damage to each hit. This essentially cuts it's effectiveness in half, but still gives benefit from each individual point of power. Only problem is the lack of dice (1d5? 1d7?). Easy fix if you just use a random # generator though.

You also might want to consider the fact that raw damage is more valuable than some of the other abilities, so getting it on a one-for-one basis might be the problem that needs to be addressed.

Really? I would have thought that defense and attack would be the most desirable, since they let you actually HIT the opponent, and prevent them from hitting you. At least in the games I've played, +1 to hit has always been better than +1 damage. Maybe this is the case in higher level games? In that case, I've never played such a campaign.

Also, you might want to limit any given attribute on a character to equaling their level, or perhaps three-quarters their level (minimum one). That way, you don't get a 20th-level Fighter with 35 points in Power.

Well, in my last post, I mentioned how I think stats should advance: each time your BaB increases, you get 1-3 points to increase stats with (depending on BaB progression). However, no single stat can be higher than your BaB would be at that level.

Also, I haven't tested this or anything but I think that by splitting the BAB up into 4 parts and deriving AC from it you'll find yourself with underpowered characters. Someone correctly me if I'm wrong I haven't run any calculations or anything; this is just an untested observation. Why not have all statistics improve at .5 per level IF that particular statistic is not already higher than that.

I'm not so sure this would be the case. First off, note that power and defense are 'new' attributes that are not normally available to characters--i.e., normally there is no way for a character to increase his AC or Damage with increased levels. All I'm cutting out is the AC a character would get from his armor (shields still give AC), which would be in the 5-9 range. A warrior gets to increase nearly all of his stats per level, so he could improve his AC to 10 by 10th level. Wizards and classes with poor AC don't wear armor anyway, so even if they never increase their defense, they won't really be at a loss.

Also, no one seems to have addressed size modifiers as they relate to this combat system.

Good point. I'd have to think about it, but increasing power and decreasing defense and speed for larger units (opposite for smaller) makes sense. I mentioned +1 reach / size catagory over medium, but I think this would need to be on a sliding scale.

As far as weapon characteristics go, I'd forego the 'if your weapon has 3 or more 'reach' points than your opponant you get a 5' square on him. In its place simply give certain weapons the a 5' melee range (longspear and polearms, I'm looking at you).

Good point, but I was mainly thinking in terms of calculating range for larger creatures using certain weapons. I suppose this is already covered in the rules though.

Additionally if you are going for a more realistic feel be vary of making the one handed style competetive. I don't believe it would be in the real world. People would either use both hands on their weapon or use a shield.

True in general. Two things however: (1), I was watching some show on TV (Extreme Martial Arts), and it was showing how someone wielding only 1 weapon has more agility and flexibility than someone wielding 2 (allowing them to dodge blows better, etc). So I find it plausible that a warrior who has trained to use a single weapon could be competative vs someone with a shield or 2nd weapon.

(2) even with these rules, I'm not trying to make DnD entirely "realistic" (since there is just no way you could do half the stuff in the game if it were to be realistic); and many fantasy heroes used only one weapon in one hand. So if someone's character concept requires him to use a single weapon, then I'd like to give him/her a way to realize that. Note that even with the feats I've given above, it is still cheaper (feat wise) just to use a shield. I should also mention that I use 2 feats that increase the AC from using shields, so the SWF feats above do not allow for greater AC than when using a shield + feats IMC.