Fake TPKO ("It was only a dream")

[Mercurius]

I'm contemplating running a fake TPKO (total party kill off), but am worried about being both convincing and dealing with them being pissed off as their characters die, one by one.

Basically, the situation is that they just finished the first chapter of the new 4E Tomb of Horrors. They know that it was the the creation of some dark power, but don't know who that power is or why he created such a thing (one of them had a similar experience to the hobbit--Merry or Pippin?--in the LotR that looked through the palantir). As the next session starts, they're camping outside of the complex and getting ready to head back to town. What I was going to do was have them "wake up" to black monoliths emerging from the earth and surround them, cutting off escape, and then Moghadam from the third chapter attacking them and, considering he's a Solo 21 and they're all 10th level, should be able to handle them quite easily and relatively quickly.

After they are all dead, I'll have them wake up in camp, with some sort of lingering words from Acererak in their minds, along the lines of "Don't Fxxk with me or else..."

The problem, as I mentioned, is that they're going to be pissed off as I'm doing this or call my bluff. I have a track record of being relatively tough - only one of the group hasn't experienced character death in the campaign - but this might be perceived as a bit over the top, even for me.

Has anyone pulled this off? Pointers?

 

[fba827]

I've tried dream sequences before, telling the party after the fact that it was a dream, with varying effect...
* I've had some players who said they would have enjoyed it more if they knew 'as players' that it was a dream before hand but continued to act in character, thus, they wouldn't feel bad if/when people died
* I've had players think that I made up the 'dream' gimmick after the fact as a way to rewind the TPK. (aka i wasn't going to have be a dream, but once the TPK happened, i decided it would be a dream in order to rewind)... thus, they felt cheated afterwards
* i've had players think it was a cheesy gimmick
* some that liked it as it gave them a chance to try a situation that they normally wouldn't have had a chance to do for a while at their level

Obviously, every group (or player at your table for that matter) will have their own reaction... so it kind of depends on them personally.

but these days, i think my safest bet from a group i didn't know well would be either:
* tell them out of character when it starts that it's a dream sequence (but in character they don't know)
* or, not tell them out of character, but when it starts tell them that things seem a little strange or ethereal ... as an in character clue that things aren't normal, but without directly telling them in game or out of game.

 

[Dausuul]

My problem with all dream sequences that pretend to be real, then end with "And it was all just a dream!" is that they instantly negate the value of everything that just happened. Whether I'm playing an RPG, reading a book, or watching a movie or TV show, I always come out of it feeling like, "So... what the heck was the point of me sitting through all that?"

In the situation you're describing, it's exacerbated by the fact that the PCs have no say in the outcome, even within the dream. Big monster shows up and attacks them. Whether they fight or run or try to negotiate, doesn't make a damn bit of difference--they get curbstomped no matter what. IMO, if you're going to put the PCs in a situation where the outcome is preordained, it's very bad form to force them to go through the motions of playing it out*. Summarize what happens and move on.

I guess my question is: What do you hope to achieve by this? What's the point? I can criticize the idea as presented, but I can't make suggestions to improve it without knowing the goal.

[size=-2]*Especially in 4E, where even the most one-sided curbstomping takes several rounds to reach the inevitable conclusion.[/size]

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Dream sequences can be tricky - as an alternative, if it is a planned sequence you can have the first person to die wake up, and realize by listening to the others that the others are experiencing the same dream. If a cleric heals him in the dream have him make a will save, or fall unconscious again, awakening in the dream.... All his damage healed. If he awkens one of his fellow dreamers that dreamer falls and vanishes from the dream, his scream echoing and fading....

Another is to halve the damage, sort of, tell them that the damage they are taking feels... off, almost distant, like feeling a touch through gloves. When they awake a quarter of the damage remains - bruises where swords had pierced flesh, and spells expended remain spent.

That the movements of both the PCs and the critters seems slow, and that speech seems out of synch somehow.

Things nearby are in color, but more distant things are grey.

Someone who can't be there is standing nearby, watching the fight, perhaps commenting to another.

The Auld Grump

 

[IronWolf]

* I've had players think that I made up the 'dream' gimmick after the fact as a way to rewind the TPK. (aka i wasn't going to have be a dream, but once the TPK happened, i decided it would be a dream in order to rewind)... thus, they felt cheated afterwards
* i've had players think it was a cheesy gimmick

I'm not a big fan of them for these reasons. Even if the DM planned it, it sounds a little like he or she is really just pulling the player's out of the fire after the fact.

I am sure there are groups out there it could work for though.

 

[buddhafrog]

Yeah, this can work, or it can fail.

I did my first dream sequence recently and it worked really well. Here are some points that I would recommend to make it work rather than fail, and an example how I tried to do this in my recent attempt:

• Make it believable- I told one PC to "roll a dice check, but I can't tell you what it's for yet - but it's pretty hard." This gave me enough wiggle room. The group thought he failed. I then asked the others to roll perception dice checks. Anyone that succeeded, I told them they woke up suddenly, saw a lot of swirling mist... but the first PC was no where to be seen. They awoke the other PC's immediately of course - and entered their group dream.
• Run the encounter differently - Soon the group was fighting against a familiar version of a very deadly battle they had just the day before, including some zombies of recently killed monsters and the ghost of an important enemy they had just killed and whose magic sword they had just taken, plus one living sorcerer BBEG that had been hunting them. However, after a few rounds, I then cut to the one PC who "disappeared" and had him roleplay his situation. Then I jumped back and forth between both situations each turn.
• Make it surreal - but not immediately as to not give any hints that it could be a dream too early. I had one enemy start to morph after a few rounds, getting stronger each time (PC was freaked out about what he had gotten into). When a PC used his 2nd wind, I rolled, then told him he regained only 2 HP. One PC's fey step made him re-appear in a random location. Like a real nightmare where you just can't seem to run fast for an unknown reason, I took away a small PC reliable to put them in unease.
• Make it somewhat quick - I played the monsters real fast and required the players to do so as well - it worked b/c they felt hastened b/c of the missing PC's situation. Near the end, after one PC was dead, one was out, and the other knew his fate was near, I ended the sequence.
• How will you end it? After I jumped away from the dying party, I role-played with the missing PC for several turns, during which it became more obvious that this was possibly dream. I ended with this first PC waking up finding his party turning, sweating, mumbling in their sleep.
• Why are they having this dream? This is probably the most crucial. If you don't have this, it's sort of forced. The missing PC was a wizard who was sent on this quest by his powerful, beloved mentor who had whispered fears of danger and utmost secrecy. The party hadn't heard from this mentor since that day. The PC wizard woke up from his sleep. I told him that he saw his party sleeping, and that he started walking up the mountainside they were camping under (I didn't give him any option here). He saw what he believed was the mentor's familiar and I gave him the choice of what to do. He followed it, of course. He felt groggy and thus took -5 to skill checks (made PC's believe it more - was he tranced, etc?). They were cursing the wizard PC - "it's a trap!" Eventually, the PC was lead to the mentor who was standing on a cliff. This is when I ended the other party's TPK and roleplayed the PC wizard with his mentor. The mentor said a few short but important things, smiled lovingly and said "Don't be afraid, I believe in you", and then jumped off the cliff - dead.
• Leave them with "what the F was that?" - Afterwards, they knew it was a dream of course - but why/what? They believed the mentor had really died, but did he - one PC steadfastly refused to believe it. Were the mentors words true? Most believed so. Probably. A few encounters later they confirmed this as true, met the mentor's killer who was the sorcerer in their dream, got righteous revenge, and eventually tied all their loose ends.
• Play up their fears - During the TPK sequence, I tried to play up the PC's fears. One PC has a fear of failing his party by not being able to protect them (like he failed with his past merchant boss who was ambushed and killed). I had him the last to survive after seeing the rest of his party go down. I even had one of the zombies start eating one of the dying PC's, stop and turn to the fighter, and hackle with delight while blood flowed down his chin. Another has fear of undead, guess which PC was the one being eaten by the zombie? I also gave the party less healing surges that night because of the toll of their dream (our house rule - a full night's rest results in 1~5 surges depending upon the quality of the rest - makes for a grittier game)

This encounter took more planning than normal, especially in how it would relate to the plot as a whole. But it went brilliantly and even better, really propelled the campaign plot towards the next phase of the story and gave the PC's an even sweater revenge in the end.

 

[kitsune9]

These are kind of hard to do.

I had played in a Ravenloft module at a con where the beginning scene is supposed to be a TPK. The way the DM played it though was a very long (and quite boring) fight in which in the end we all die. This was at the beginning of the mod and then we're supposed to do other things, but the DM left the game abruptly.

There are several approaches I guess a DM could take without pissing off the players, but it's kind of one of those situations--either you have the players invested in believing that their characters really got killed (thus risking their ire) or you do things that could clue them in that you're "bluffing" (and risking their annoyance of putting them through the exercise).

Here's some tacts:

1. A Dream Within a Dream--the PC's know they go to sleep, but they are in the dream world as themselves, deal with the encounter that kills them, only to wake up and find that their reality has in fact changed.
2. Reality is Altered--have the PC's stop and make camp, but realize that something has terribly gone wrong, that reality is altered or strange. They fight their encounter, get killed, and then wake up. The player's however would initially think that they crossed into some extra-dimension, etc. instead of actually falling asleep. When they wakeup give them a Knowledge check or something that makes them realize that the weird reality was them in the Dream World. Getting killed is unnerving, but the message is delivered.
3. The Dream World is a Real Place Too. A plot device is that the PC's do get killed in the dream world, had to duke it out and got wiped out, and now there is a price to be paid in the waking world like not healing as much, not being able to rest, or something devious. They know that their dream selves are dead and they must some way to get them resurrected. As players, they know they went to sleep, but then you spring something upon them when they've waken up.

 

[jbear]

Is that Ravenloft module 'The House on Gryphon Hill' by any chance?

I have mixed that module into my homebrew campaign and the dream sequence slaughter worked very well when I ran it.

I think the set up into the situation is important. My Players had slogged their way through 'the Bog' to get to their destination, Loudwater. The Bog is a terrifying and near impenetrable swamp under the dark influence of the 'Creature' where she gathers her dark strength and rallies evil forces around her before beginning her 'poisoning' of the town where the PCs just arrived.

I ran a skill challenge for them to get through the outskirts of the Bog. Each fail lead them through one of the Creatures areas of influence where the PCs were exposed to infection by her dark malady. By the time they reached the town they were running high fever and feeling dizzy and nauseas. The towns folk began to blur into hideous monsters who leered and jeered at them before they finally collapsed unconscious on the stairs of the town Sanitorium.

Enough set up for them to realise whatever was to follow was of a questionable nature I think. Following the guide in the Ravenloft module the following dream sequence is an encounter between the Creature and the PCs which should be a fast, brutal slaughter.
Fast and brutal being the key words, to not give the PCs time to dwell on the unbelievable nature of the encounter I guess and so that it isn't something that drags out.

As I run 4e I converted the Creature into 4e Strahd but delevelled him a bit so they could actually hit him. And added two other Vampire's muse elites to make sure it was fast and over quickly.

But like others have said when experiencing such an encounter, I didn't want there to be NO POINT to the encounter. Yep, cool, set up the baddie, make sure the Creature is feared and loathed etc . But what was in it for the PCs? So I decided to build in a number of features into the encounter that the PCs could discover that if revealed would give them insight into the Creatures weaknesses and weaken it considerably when they encountered each other for real in the future. I also built in a 'way out of the dream'.

Unfortunately (for them), my players bought the encounter hook line and sinker and fought to near the bitter end. With 3 vampires way over their level and 3 Dominated PCs the combat was indeed fast and brutal as they hacked each other up. Emotions were were on a knife edge. And then the Cleric said ... this can't be happening, what if it's a dream or something? I raised an eyebrow and described in detail the pain she felt rip through her body as she took another hit. From then on, however, the doubt was there in everyone's mind (which I didn't mind at all). They began to actually start thinking, looking around at the room and wondering the significance of the clues/escape routes I had placed around the area. Something clicked in the Sorceror's head and she rightly said they needed to investigate those objects and ignore the fighting. But realisation came too late. Before anyone could get out of the corner they had boxed themselves into and tenaciously refused to leave they were dead.

Mixed reactions when I described that they woke up bathed in sweat in a sparse room where a nurse looked over them with a concerned face. When they discovered that they had gone on a rampage through town fighting the creatures of their halluciantions, destroying shop windows, public property and menacing the townsfolk while experiencing their fevered dream I think those who disliked the idea came around to it and began to enjoy it retrospectively. They were kicking themselves for not having explored the room. But everything that followed, all the weirdness that began to occur had been given a very creepy context. It really set the atmosphere for everything that followed since then, so I think it was worth it.

If I did it again i might be a little more explicit about the 'out of place features in the room' in order to draw their attention/interest to them more strongly.

But fast and brutal is important. It shouldn't be something that drags out. Add some achievable goals that will give them an advantage when they wake up, or a mechanism to 'beat the dream' or put it on pause long enough for them to discover the relevant secrets hidden in the area. Give it a context if possible. Why are they suddenly dreaming. What is happening in the real world while they are dreaming, something parallel in the real world? What long lasting effects does this have on them as the adventure unfolds?

My PCs have their Insight and Endurance attacked when they come across relevant parts of the adventure that bring them closer to defeating the creature. Those that fail experience cold shivers, momentary hallucinations and weakness. It's something they know is connected back to that dream. And everytime it happens it adds a lovely creepy feeling to what is going on.

For what it's worth the dream slaughter encounter is amongst many of my players most memorable and enjoyable encounters played to date.

 

[Jhaelen]

I'm contemplating running a fake TPKO (total party kill off), but am worried about being both convincing and dealing with them being pissed off as their characters die, one by one.

What if the encounter doesn't result in a TPKO?
Trying to force something like this will probably not go over well, even if it's just a 'fake'.

The only way I've ever done this was to completely narrate it, i.e. it didn't actually involve a combat encounter, so it was pretty obvious to everyone from the beginning it wasn't real. I used it as a kind of prophesy or glimpse into a potential future that might come to happen.

 

[Mighty Halfling]

At the start of the combat, show them a sealed envelope, and then stick it someplace where it's clearly visible. When the party is all dead, tell them to open it. Inside it says "And now you wake up."

Other ideas:

• You could tell one of the players -- and have that player play up the dream/nightmare aspect of the combat Ask that player to just go crazy through the combat and act completely out of character. (Mage goes melee, Cleric loses faith, brute cowers in the corner, etc.)
  
• Make things not make sense through the combat. The terrain changes. The villain disappears and reappears. Even have combat numbers (AC, HP, Saves) shift through the combat.
  
• Personalize it to the ridiculous extreme. Suddenly have family members appear and get killed. Have spellbooks incinerate. Treasured weapons break.
  
• Whatever you do, make the fight a short one. Five rounds or so. Just kill off one character per round.