Falling Damage Scaling With Tier?

[LuckyAdrastus]

I was thinking about how in 4e, most threats scale with level. Thus a terrain hazard will do more damage in paragon than heroic, and more in epic than paragon. However, falling damage is an exception to this. Falling damage is fixed at 1d10 per 10', which is a holdover from earlier editions (2nd at least, I think, if not earlier).

Wouldn't it be better if falling damage also scaled with tier? Perhaps, it could be 1d10+3 per 10' at paragon, and 1d10+6 at epic? Or even 2d10 at paragon, and 3d10 at epic?

The reason to implement this change is to make drops a meaningful part of encounters into the higher tiers. DMs cannot simply introduce larger drops in the battle, because this remains a tabletop RPG, where the battlefied needs to fit easily on a tabletop that uses square grids and fixed space (with little place for especially tall 3D architecture). Additionally, creature speeds does not increase significantly in higher tiers, so that even an epic PC is pressed to climb out of a 40'+ deep pit is less than three rounds, making a long drop into a kind of save-or-die effect.

In Epic, a 30' drop deals an average of 16.5 hp, which is a small fraction of the PC's hitpoints -- perhaps in the mid 150's or so. Make it 1d10+6 per 10's, and the average damage increased to 32.5, and suddenly, it matters, being about 1/5 of the PCs hitpoints, give or take (hp of course vary -- I used the CB to make a 25th level monk, and got 159 hp).

The increased damage keeps the falling damage more in line with a blow from an epic monster (which has also increased following MM3), and also means that epic battlefields can still include 10' and 20' drops that play a meaningful tactical role beyond being something for the PC and monster to jump/fly/teleport over.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I thought the idea is just that you have longer drops for paragon and epic level characters, and they have to use fly or teleport or something similar to get themselves out of very deep pits or cliffs, but I can see how it could be a problem in terms of movement.

An alternative might be to have additional stuff at the bottom of the bit (like stakes, poisoned daggers, astral nibbers etc) which add a damage bonus to each die of damage from the fall.

 

[LuckyAdrastus]

I thought the idea is just that you have longer drops for paragon and epic level characters, and they have to use fly or teleport or something similar to get themselves out of very deep pits or cliffs, but I can see how it could be a problem in terms of movement.

An alternative might be to have additional stuff at the bottom of the bit (like stakes, poisoned daggers, astral nibbers etc) which add a damage bonus to each die of damage from the fall.

Good point on putting damaging stuff in the pit, that is another way to keep the threat heightened by tier. However, what if you just want, narratively, a pit, but not the pointy stuff on the bottom? OTOH, maybe that's just part of what you should expect at epic tier!

As you elude to, just using deeper pits don't work that well b/c PC movement speed doesn't increase much over the tiers. Even an epic character probably has a speed of 7 or 8 max, and maybe can teleport or fly that distance sometimes. A 50' pit is 10 squares deep, which requires 10 squares of teleportation or flight, or 20 squares of climbing (@1/2 speed) to get out of, which means the PC is likely out for several turns on a deep pit.

 

[RangerWickett]

I did the following:

Falling 10' does damage equal to 0.25 x your full hit points.

20' = 0.5 x full hit points.

30' = 0.75 x full hit points.

40' = full hit points.

50' = 1.25 x full hit points.

60' = 1.5 x full hit points.

70' = 1.75 x full hit points.

80' = 2 x full hit points.

90' = 2.25 x full hit points.

100'+ = 2.5 x full hit points.

You can make an Acrobatics check to reduce the damage taken. Your result determines how much to reduce the damage.

Beat DC 10 = Reduce by 0.25 x full hp.
DC 20 = Reduce by 0.5.
DC 30 = Reduce by 0.75.
DC 35 = Reduce by 1.
DC 40 = Reduce by 1.25
DC 45 = Reduce by 1.5
DC 50 = Reduce by 1.75
DC 60 = Reduce by 2.

Falling onto a yielding surface (branches, a hay bale) reduces damage by 25% (after factoring in the Acrobatics roll).

Falling onto a very yielding surface (water, ooze) reduces damage by 50% (after factoring in the Acrobatics roll).

So if you fall off a 100 ft. cliff onto a solid surface, even if you're a skilled acrobatic, you're going to die. Paragon acrobats (with skill modifiers of +15 or more) have a slim chance of surviving that fall, and epic folks (with skill modifiers of +25 or higher) could possibly survive it even after a bit of combat.

That's probably more lethal than most people want.

 

[NotAYakk]

Hazards should scale because non-dangerous hazards are not worth mentioning. Much like opponents should scale because non-dangerous opponents should be minionized, and non-dangerous minions are plot dressing.

That doesn't mean that an existing hazard should become tougher, or that an existing monster should become tougher, just because the PCs gain levels.

Now you can leave the difficulty of a region or a trap nebulous until the PCs encounter at, at which point you make it "always dangerous enough" for the PCs.

---

However, falling 10' is falling 10'. It isn't a different fall because the PCs are higher level.

Higher level PCs are supposed to find things that would challenge lower level PCs trivial. One of those things is (comparatively) short falls.

If you want to make the pit traps more dangerous without making them taller, stick lava/spikes/poison/timeless voids at the bottom of them.

While movement doesn't speed up, the ability to gain easy access to a climb speed, burrow speed, teleport speed, or fly speed crops up in paragon, and epic characters who lack encounter or at-will alternative movement modes are like heavy armor halflings in heroic -- they are crippled at moving around.

Ie, take a character with teleports:
Level 1: Teleport 25' per-encounter
Level 3: Teleport 45' per-encounter
Level 6: Teleport 15' at-will/one encounter/day
Level 10: Teleport 5' at-will, 50' per-encounter
Level 12: Teleport 15' at-will, 65' per-encounter

That is not an unusual progression (and comes from a character I played from level 1 to level 12).

 

[Stalker0]

As you elude to, just using deeper pits don't work that well b/c PC movement speed doesn't increase much over the tiers. Even an epic character probably has a speed of 7 or 8 max, and maybe can teleport or fly that distance sometimes.

However, just like at heroic level PCs are dealing with slows and immobilze and at epic its stuns...hazards don't just get more damaging, they get more debilitating with tier.

I think longer drops are just fine. Epic Characters are extrememely tough and have plenty of ways to alter the battleground to their needs. They can get flies and long teleports and faster movement to help deal with those bigger falls.

I think falling damage works great as is, and don't see a need to change it.


As for your thoughts at a 10 foot hole, think of it like this. Just like a lowly 1st level kobold is no threat to an epic level character, neither is the 10 foot hole.

However, if I make that kobold a solo with a stunning aura and death laser eyes and a penance for devouring epic flesh (aka 30th level monster) than its a challenge.

If I want a 10 foot hole to be an epic level challenge, then I put a sphere of annihilation at the bottom, with a stunning trap at the top of the pit. An inside the sphere of annihilation is a kobold solo with death laser eyes!

 

[LuckyAdrastus]

However, just like at heroic level PCs are dealing with slows and immobilze and at epic its stuns...hazards don't just get more damaging, they get more debilitating with tier.

I think longer drops are just fine. Epic Characters are extrememely tough and have plenty of ways to alter the battleground to their needs. They can get flies and long teleports and faster movement to help deal with those bigger falls.

I think falling damage works great as is, and don't see a need to change it.


As for your thoughts at a 10 foot hole, think of it like this. Just like a lowly 1st level kobold is no threat to an epic level character, neither is the 10 foot hole.

However, if I make that kobold a solo with a stunning aura and death laser eyes and a penance for devouring epic flesh (aka 30th level monster) than its a challenge.

If I want a 10 foot hole to be an epic level challenge, then I put a sphere of annihilation at the bottom, with a stunning trap at the top of the pit. An inside the sphere of annihilation is a kobold solo with death laser eyes!

I'm a big fan of stuff with laser eyes. There was this one time...

No seriously, thanks for the reply, and I see your points. It is true that you could always just put nastier and nastier spikes at the bottom of cliffs, but I think there are still some limits.

First off, you need to have nasty spikes at the bottom of all your pits! It might be unrealistic, especially if you are setting an epic fight in an epic location such as one of the cities in the Astral Sea like Hestavar, where nasty spikes and the like are out of place.

Also, I think it is still a problem that many PCs won't be that much faster at Epic than Heroic, when it comes to getting out of cliffs. Although there are improved options for speed at higher levels, they aren't baked into character advancement, like the +1/2 level bonus to attacks and defenses. Lots of PCs will, for valid reasons, never take powers that give them huge teleports and flies, and they will be faced with losing several rounds every time they fall down a, say, 60' cliff.

Now, a lot of PCs do get pretty mobile, or get mobility for their allies. And I haven't played much in the paragon and epic tiers, so maybe mobility does overall improve enough to deal with huge pits.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

This is an interesting thread as pits/drops are classic parts of fantasy role-playing, but a drop can result in a 'removed from play' condition.. which can be no fun.

The challenge is to make them viable hazards while somewhat level ignorant.

Over this this thread, a couple of us are looking at different options. Please drop in and add your comments/improvements!

Heres to challenging my 17th level PCs with Pits!
especially the Tank of a fighter who has no means on his own to get out of a 20' pit without resorting to climbing... which means the pit is really a {take some minor damage and you are out of combat for 1 turn.. with a save to see if you don't get pushed back into the pit for another turn...}

 

[Negflar2099]

Really this depends on how you view hit points. If you think hit points represent a character actually getting tougher and more damage resistant than falling shouldn't scale in damage. Under this model the 80 ft fall that would have completely splattered the fighter with 50 hit points is just less of a threat to the fighter with 200 hp. In this sense the fighter with 200 hp is like a superhero, able to do things lesser warriors can't, which includes surviving falls that would kill normal people.

There is a different model of hit points and what they represent, however. Under this model hit points don't represent actual toughness so much as they represent a combination of skill and luck that allows a higher level fighter to turn a deadly blow into a grazing cut. Under this model falling damage should definitely scale. A fall is not an opponent. It can't be dodged, ducked, or out maneuvered. In essence the fall does the same damage it always does, we just scale it up to account for the extra hit points we've given the fighter, hit points that shouldn't help him absorb the damage from a fall anymore than being the best at math would let you survive being immersed in lava.

That said a skilled fighter should know how to fall to avoid the worst of the damage but isn't that what Acrobatics and Athletics represent? As long as you don't scale the DC's even an untrained fighter (of high level) has a better chance of lessening damage from a fall than he did when he was lower level.

I like this way of handling falls because it neatly solves one of the problems with hp, namely why if hp is just fighting skill can a higher level character suddenly survive a 1,000 foot plunge into an acid pit with only a few scratches?*

*hyperbole added for comic effect.

 

[Jack Colby]

It would be more consistent perhaps, but not better. Better would be if nothing scaled with tier at all, since it doesn't make sense, and devalues your character's supposed rise in skill and power. Does an avalanche do more damage to a skilled warrior than a newbie? Why? I think falling has the right idea, it's the rest that is backward.