Familiars and skills

[Ferrum]

Now, I'm guessing since I can't find it anywhere that they don't, but do familiars gain skill points as they advance?

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.

This states that the familiar can have ranks in a skill, though I've seen no actual circumstance where that is the case.

Seeing as how familiars are intelligent and are advancing, I'd assume they're learning something along the way. I'm probably wrong though.

 

[shilsen]

Now, I'm guessing since I can't find it anywhere that they don't, but do familiars gain skill points as they advance?

No. You need to actually gain hit dice to gain skill pts and a familiar doesn't.

This states that the familiar can have ranks in a skill, though I've seen no actual circumstance where that is the case.

Familiars do have ranks in skills. Look at the stats of the base animal to find what skills they have ranks in.

Seeing as how familiars are intelligent and are advancing, I'd assume they're learning something along the way. I'm probably wrong though.

Familiars are not advancing, or at least not by HD.

 

[Ferrum]

No. You need to actually gain hit dice to gain skill pts and a familiar doesn't.

ok

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

So if that means that a 7th level wizard's familiar goes from an effective 7 HD to 8 HD when the wizard levels to 8, how is that not advancing in hit dice? I suppose in this respect it's more an arguement of what exactly an "effect" is.

Familiars do have ranks in skills. Look at the stats of the base animal to find what skills they have ranks in.

Actually, in all the animal listings I've found, they have racial adjustments for different skills, but no actual ranks listed. On top of that, after taking a long look at some of them, there seems to be no rhyme or reason to how many un-accounted-for ranks any given animal has compared to its number of HD, or any other factor for that matter. It all seems rather arbitrary.

 

[Wintergreen]

Familiars have the skill ranks of their masters plus the skills of the basic creature. You then apply the familiar's stat mod and any other mods such as the racial bonuses.

Or as the SRD puts it:



Skills
For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.

 

[shilsen]

So if that means that a 7th level wizard's familiar goes from an effective 7 HD to 8 HD when the wizard levels to 8, how is that not advancing in hit dice? I suppose in this respect it's more an arguement of what exactly an "effect" is.

It's not advancing in hit dice because it doesn't get any of the concomitant improvement (feats, skills, saves, etc). All it does is count as having a certain HD level when required for effects such as being targeted by a spell.

Actually, in all the animal listings I've found, they have racial adjustments for different skills, but no actual ranks listed. On top of that, after taking a long look at some of them, there seems to be no rhyme or reason to how many un-accounted-for ranks any given animal has compared to its number of HD, or any other factor for that matter. It all seems rather arbitrary.

None of the MM entries have skill ranks listed.

 

[Klaus]

Look at the Cat, for instance. If you do the math, you'll see that it has 2 ranks in Listen and Spot.

 

[Ferrum]

Look at the Cat, for instance. If you do the math, you'll see that it has 2 ranks in Listen and Spot.

I noticed that, but why does it have 4 skill points to distribute?
A raven has 7 skill points distributed.
A rat has 2 skill points distributed.
A toad has 4 skill points distributed.
A weasel has 10 distributed skill points.
They all have the same Int of 2 (well, toad has an int of 1).

I supposed trying to make any sense out of it is useless.

It's not advancing in hit dice because it doesn't get any of the concomitant improvement (feats, skills, saves, etc). All it does is count as having a certain HD level when required for effects such as being targeted by a spell.

I'd pretty much expected this was the answer. Still, I have trouble with the idea that a creature which is intelligent, learning, growing and becoming more capable, can't learn how to hide better or sneak more quietly over time. Some familiars become more intelligent than PCs, and yeat, still can't learn. Seems a little hard to swallow.

 

[IcyCool]

I noticed that, but why does it have 4 skill points to distribute?

Some of the creatures in the MM are off on skill points. It is an error, and I'm not sure why it hasn't been fixed.

I'd pretty much expected this was the answer. Still, I have trouble with the idea that a creature which is intelligent, learning, growing and becoming more capable, can't learn how to hide better or sneak more quietly over time. Some familiars become more intelligent than PCs, and yeat, still can't learn. Seems a little hard to swallow.

An animal companion gains hit dice. It grows, learns, and becomes more capable.

A familiar is an extension of the master. It is dependent upon him for survival. It does not grow, learn, or become more capable. It's master does those, and the familiar benefits from it (i.e. The familiar benefits from the masters improved skills, BAB, base saves, etc. I'm not sure why they were done differently, but they are. Personally, I'd like to see them done like the Paladin's mount, so that they personally advance, and you could even have your familiar become your cohort (via the variant in the DMG).

 

[ceratitis]

if you're the dm why not simply grant them skill points? hardly seems game breaking to me. if you're a player ask politly
Z