Fantasy-Tragedy campaign, how to go about it?

[Zansy]

Hi! I want to make a D&D campaign with elements of tragedy in them, not to confuse with horror, or necessarily a gritty campaign (though it could be), I want death in one shape or form, and I want it to mean something.

I've said it several times in the time I've been playing, sure it sucks if a PC dies, and your player typically has to make his peace with that and build a new character, these things happen, usually by accident in my case. But death means so, so much more when the death of a character (player or otherwise) undeniably impacts the story from this point forth.

However, I've also learned it is much easier said than done ^^; and even if I want to start my adventure knowing that there will be meaningful tragedy, I am not confident that I know how to execute it.

So to sum up the purpose of this thread, What do I need to know before I deliberately make an adventure in which 1 or more players die by design?
From an ethical perspective, If my players know this from the very beginning and consent to this condition, does that make it "okay?"
Alternatively, what if instead of a PC tragedy, I wanted a NPC tragedy? what can I do to maximize the impact of this NPC's demise, make it memorable, and make it critical to the way the plot advances/draws to a close?

Any input or advice on the matter would be most appreciated! Thank you very much in advance!

 

[Nagol]

Why do you want to use D&D for this? There are so many other game systems where this form of play is much, much easier to accommodate. In D&D, you'll have to fight the system continually and it lacks hooks into the characters to easily exploit to engender self-sacrifice, pathos, or anything other than the players muttering "Bummer".

If you really want to use D&D, one relatively simple way to structure an adventure in this manner is a form of Sophie's Choice. "One must stay to prevent the X from Y. Which one of you will act as sacrifice or will you condemn A to B?" Then have getting to that point potentially tedious, apparently dangerous, but nothing that has a chance of killing the PCs prematurely.

 

[Zansy]

Why do you want to use D&D for this? There are so many other game systems where this form of play is much, much easier to accommodate.

If nothing else, it's a system I know, and my circle of friends primarily play Pathfinder or (when I run things) D&D 5e. this alone puts it ahead of learning an entire new system, at least for the time being.

In D&D, you'll have to fight the system continually and it lacks hooks into the characters to easily exploit to engender self-sacrifice, pathos, or anything other than the players muttering "Bummer".

Not strictly so, I can find a handful of players in my group who could immerse themselves, build some story ties, ideally, if I run 5th edition (which seems likely, I'll clarify that in the OP) I can appeal to ideals, bonds and flaws.

If you really want to use D&D, one relatively simple way to structure an adventure in this manner is a form of Sophie's Choice. "One must stay to prevent the X from Y. Which one of you will act as sacrifice or will you condemn A to B?" Then have getting to that point potentially tedious, apparently dangerous, but nothing that has a chance of killing the PCs prematurely.

That's an interesting option, I like it, but I'm not entirely sure what I would do with it just yet. I must know what other tricks do you have up your sleeve?

 

[Jhaelen]

Tragedies work because they are scripted. If an RPG game is scripted, it's not really enjoyable. If tragedy develops naturally from gameplay, it's fine, but trying to plan for it is doomed to fail. Start smaller:
Create adventures with implications. The goals should be morally ambiguous, there shouldn't be a 'right' way to solve them. You want to create a dilemma for the characters. You don't have to kill a player character for that. All you need is to develop a setting and npcs that the characters care about. Create situations that force them to make hard decisions, and always think about what potential outcomes and side-effects their decisions may have. Have them act on insufficient information, then, later confront them with the details and background information that probably would have caused them to act in a different way.

I know this is easier said than done and requires more work and care for the DM, but (assuming your players are actually interested in such a game) the outcome will be worth it.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I think, for PC tragedy, the players have to be on-board with that sort of game. It also should be something that is the PC's choice. And that choice has to mean something beyond just "that PC is dead."

On the other hand, if it's an NPC, you need to spend time so that they care about the NPC. In my Out of the Abyss campaign, everyone's favorite intelligent gelatinous cube Glagabool was in danger this last adventure, and the PCs were supercharged to rescue him.

For both PC and NPC tragedy, I think that there has to be meaning and repercussions to the signature event.

 

[Lylandra]

Tragedies work because they are scripted. If an RPG game is scripted, it's not really enjoyable. If tragedy develops naturally from gameplay, it's fine, but trying to plan for it is doomed to fail. Start smaller:
Create adventures with implications. The goals should be morally ambiguous, there shouldn't be a 'right' way to solve them. You want to create a dilemma for the characters. You don't have to kill a player character for that. All you need is to develop a setting and npcs that the characters care about. Create situations that force them to make hard decisions, and always think about what potential outcomes and side-effects their decisions may have. Have them act on insufficient information, then, later confront them with the details and background information that probably would have caused them to act in a different way.

I know this is easier said than done and requires more work and care for the DM, but (assuming your players are actually interested in such a game) the outcome will be worth it.

I'd second this. You want your players to be in charge of their characters and a scripted death takes this form of control or agency away from them. Now, if your players want a highly scripted campaign, this may be okay for them, but for the majority of them it would be quite a bummer. You can evoke tragedy and mature tones in a campaign by getting your characters involved with their environment (towns, NPC, other PCs...) and then put them into situation where they have to choose between two or more equally consequential actions. Let a seemingly "right" solution to a problem evolve to a dramatic outcome for someone else. Use rivals and enemies who like to hurt the PCs in a personal, maybe even vengeful way ("classic tragedy" stuff). Let them choose between quick and dangerous plans and longer, safer, but also less favorable ones. Let them decide which one is the lesser of two evils.

But first and foremost: Let it feel natural and organic, not forced. Players tend to hate being forced because the DM wants to create meta-effect and they will realize what you're trying to do if you're not sensitive and careful about your mets-plans.

 

[Zansy]

Tragedies work because they are scripted. If an RPG game is scripted, it's not really enjoyable. If tragedy develops naturally from gameplay, it's fine, but trying to plan for it is doomed to fail. Start smaller:

I don't know about that, actually, I'm certain that there must be a trick around building a tragedy without scripting every tiny detail or railroading the entire plotline. because tragedies happen on their own, too. surely there must be middle ground - if there's a will, there's a way, as they say.
I'd like to think that it's not impossible to make a carefully planned tragedy, even if it will be a difficult thing to pull off I want to at least try to deliver the impact. I am keenly aware that the best tragedies reveal themselves to be so at the climax, there is a LOT of build up if I want maximum impact, I am aware of this too. I want to focus my efforts on the "how to", not the "why not."

Create adventures with implications. The goals should be morally ambiguous, there shouldn't be a 'right' way to solve them. You want to create a dilemma for the characters. You don't have to kill a player character for that. All you need is to develop a setting and npcs that the characters care about. Create situations that force them to make hard decisions, and always think about what potential outcomes and side-effects their decisions may have. Have them act on insufficient information, then, later confront them with the details and background information that probably would have caused them to act in a different way.

I know this is easier said than done and requires more work and care for the DM, but (assuming your players are actually interested in such a game) the outcome will be worth it.

After giving it some thought, I am leaning more towards an NPC death, (if necessary, assuming someone does die in the end). I do like this chunk of advice, though - a difficult, misinformed decision(s) or dilemma(s) with an aftermath (however indirect) that the players will have to deal with, which could have been avoided if they knew there was another way... this sounds like a good place to start building

I think, for PC tragedy, the players have to be on-board with that sort of game. It also should be something that is the PC's choice. And that choice has to mean something beyond just "that PC is dead."

On the other hand, if it's an NPC, you need to spend time so that they care about the NPC. In my Out of the Abyss campaign, everyone's favorite intelligent gelatinous cube Glagabool was in danger this last adventure, and the PCs were supercharged to rescue him.

For both PC and NPC tragedy, I think that there has to be meaning and repercussions to the signature event.

I couldn't agree with you more, as above, I am currently leaning towards an NPC death, but ideally, I want to be able to span this as a small adventure, rather than a long-term campaign, if at all possible. if there is evidently no such option as to make 1 or more compelling characters (and one or more tragic characters-) in a short amount of time, I would then resort to a PC tragedy.

I'd second this. You want your players to be in charge of their characters and a scripted death takes this form of control or agency away from them. Now, if your players want a highly scripted campaign, this may be okay for them, but for the majority of them it would be quite a bummer. You can evoke tragedy and mature tones in a campaign by getting your characters involved with their environment (towns, NPC, other PCs...) and then put them into situation where they have to choose between two or more equally consequential actions. Let a seemingly "right" solution to a problem evolve to a dramatic outcome for someone else. Use rivals and enemies who like to hurt the PCs in a personal, maybe even vengeful way ("classic tragedy" stuff). Let them choose between quick and dangerous plans and longer, safer, but also less favorable ones. Let them decide which one is the lesser of two evils.

But first and foremost: Let it feel natural and organic, not forced. Players tend to hate being forced because the DM wants to create meta-effect and they will realize what you're trying to do if you're not sensitive and careful about your meta-plans.

but meta-planning is beautiful *_*

naw but seriously, I think for some reason you guys are getting the impression that I want to meticulously plan every step of the adventure in minute detail to assure that I railroad my players to tell the story I want, that is not going to be the case if I can help it. I do agree with you on those points on paper, if and when the tragedy happens among PCs, the death element should be a voluntary one, which the players will build on that possibility from character creation. I never said my campaign had to be scripted, All I said was that I wanted to build around the desired event, it does not strictly mean that there must be railroading for that to happen, even though it is significantly harder when it isn't.

Now you mentioned letting it feel natural and organic, Could you provide an example of how that would play out, so that I may have a reference point? (As I said, I'm focusing on the "how to", not the "why not.")