Fashion + Tech

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Like I said, "not with any efficiency." Compounding takes a fair bit of time: there is something my mom had to get from a local compounding pharmacy here in D/FW, one of our country's top 10 metropolitan areas. It took them nearly a week to get the supplies for that particular combo.

And, as I said, my wife gets things done on a daily basis. That *one* combination took a while does not say it is done without *any* efficiency.

And, much of that has nothing to do with the tech, and with the frequency of use - economy of scale strikes again. If insurance companies paid for compounding, it would happen more often, and it would be far more efficient, and cheaper, even with normal technology.

And as for the base materials point you're raising, Prof. Lee Cronin of Glascow University is one who talking about doing exactly that. He is working towards using 3D printing to make pharmaceuticals from base elements & some simple reagents. While he says he's still 5-10 years away from a real commercially viable "chemputer" (as he calls them), at a TEDtalk, he did claim that his prototype model successfully produced ibuprofen.

With respect, many things are discussed in TED talks - most of them never come to pass. We have been 5-10 years away from... flying cars, fusion power, a base on the Moon, and lots of things, for several decades now. That a noted gentleman says it, doesn't make it so.

Basically, "3D printing" is the new geek black. The phrase "3d printed" in headlines is clickbait. If you listen to what everyone claims, it looks like 3d printing will save the world from all ills (and, in fact, already has, because you'll make your time machine with a 3d printer too). "3D printing" is trendy.
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
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To clarify "efficiency":

1) while your wife does compounding on a daily basis, she's probably not held to the same standards as the guys & gals doing the same work for humans. While what works for humans may be given to animals- I'm sharing an OTC allergy med with one of our Border Collies (both of us on doctors' orders)- it doesn't go the other way. One of my prescriptions is also used in the care of livestock. I see it in feed stores and veterinary practices all over here in Texas. The same daily dose I take at @$200/month (before insurance) is @$6 a jar. But it is not deemed suitable for human consumption. Different additives, different purity levels.

2) while compounding occurs on a daily basis even for humans, the vast majority of pharmaceuticals consumed by humans are not customized but standardized at the paint of manufacture. We simply don't have the tech right now to customize every prescription for every patient in the USA. This could change that.

As for TEDtalks, and how 3D printing is the new black for geekspeak, yeah, you're right.

It could be all pie in the sky musings, but the Scots prof isn't exactly a nobody. He's got serious trophies on his mantle for his achievements in chemistry. If the man claims to have created ibuprofen with a 3D printer of some kind, I'm not in a position to debunk him.

Could it be he's overestimating the potential of the tech? Overly optimistic about the timetable to economic viability of a nascent tech? Or outright wrong? Committing a fraud? Sure! Anyone can make an error or tell a lie.

But, near as I can tell, the only critiques of his claims have been ones such as the difficulties of complying with legal regulations, purity controls and the like, not that what he claims to have done is untrue or impossible.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
1) while your wife does compounding on a daily basis, she's probably not held to the same standards as the guys & gals doing the same work for humans.

My wife writes the prescriptions. The actual compounding work is done by the *same people* as who do it for humans. Veterinarians and physicians for humans use the exact same pharmacies.

While what works for humans may be given to animals- I'm sharing an OTC allergy med with one of our Border Collies (both of us on doctors' orders)- it doesn't go the other way. One of my prescriptions is also used in the care of livestock. I see it in feed stores and veterinary practices all over here in Texas. The same daily dose I take at @$200/month (before insurance) is @$6 a jar.

Yep. But not for the reason you think.

But it is not deemed suitable for human consumption. Different additives, different purity levels.

Sorry, Danny, but you're wrong. See my previous note about using the same pharmacies - those pharmacies are pulling from the same bottles for Aunt May as for Fluffy.

Most specifically on the "purity level" thing. If your vet knowingly prescribed an "impure" drug for your dog, and that dog died, your veterinarian would get sued, and lose their licence, just like your human doctor would. In general, if the drug is used in both humans and animals, they use the same source. It isn't worth the extra cost to run two different production streams for the same stuff. And no, it is not that the batches that don't meet QA requirements become animal drugs - that would get someone sued for selling inferior product.

You do see them for different prices, yes. Humans get charged more due to the impact of health insurance companies on human medicine pricing, not because the drug is different.

2) while compounding occurs on a daily basis even for humans, the vast majority of pharmaceuticals consumed by humans are not customized but standardized at the paint of manufacture. We simply don't have the tech right now to customize every prescription for every patient in the USA. This could change that.

They are standardized at the point of manufacture because, for the most part, that's sufficient. Changing your dose of Advil a few milligrams one way or another isn't going to make it work phenomenally better. If you need very detailed dosing (by body mass, for example), we can do that via oral liquid or injectable medications, or patch-delivery in some cases.

Remember that while we know a great deal of how drugs work on people, in general, that's by way of statistical sampling. In order to do better, you need to have more detailed information on how the individual patient interacts with the drugs in question - and to date we don't have that. We usually don't have the information and understanding of the individual biochemistry required to make use of very detailed dosing.

It could be all pie in the sky musings, but the Scots prof isn't exactly a nobody.

Yes. And Einstein wasn't a nobody, but he got it wrong about quantum mechanics. :)

He's got serious trophies on his mantle for his achievements in chemistry. If the man claims to have created ibuprofen with a 3D printer of some kind, I'm not in a position to debunk him.

So, he could make a very specific machine to make a very specific compound. Big whoop. We have those already that operate with economies of scale. We don't *need* a printer to make the drug. Except in areas not served by the usual distribution systems, the value-add is in customized dosing and compounding, so Grandpa can take one pill a day instead of seven. But, there are limits with what you can do there, for reasons previously noted.

If you need to get a wide variety of drugs into, say, much of Africa today, then having a machine that can do it all is darned useful. But in most of North America, standard production is far more efficient.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
To clarify, I know that the active ingredients themselves used in the compounding process are made in the same batches, so the furosemide (lasix) I take is chemically identical to the furosemide the vets prescribe to dogs, etc.

It's all the other stuff. The additives in the pills given to humans are regulated by the FDA, while those given to animals are under the jurisdiction of the CVM subdivision of the FDA, which has different standards. Some of those additives are not as pure as the versions we get. Others additives are not approved for human consumption because their biochemistry has subtle differences from ours. Some veterinary meds have absorptive aids in greater or lesser amounts than the human versions. Ditto flavorings or coloring or other additives.

I'm not just making this up:
However, medications produced for livestock and intended to be mixed with feed may not undergo the same level of manufacturing scrutiny by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as human drugs do. These products may have more impurities that don't represent a health concern for the animals, but could for people.

- Michael Bihari, MD

http://drugs.about.com/od/faqsaboutyourdrugs/f/animalRx_faq.htm

http://drugs.about.com/bio/Michael-Bihari-MD-45716.htm

So, he could make a very specific machine to make a very specific compound. Big whoop.

That he did so- IF he did so- from basic elements & reagents in a 3D "Chemprinter" IS a big whoop. If he is right, with time, his machines will be able to do that with any and all drugs for which he has a formula. That, essentially, would make any pharmacy anywhere in the world that has one into a JIT compounding pharmacy.

That is a game changer.
 

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