Faster Combat...Lovelier Women...More Money

[Water Bob]

I've been thinking a lot about this "Player Rolls All Dice" variant of the d20 game. Have you seen this? It's pretty cool.

Nothing changes, really, about the mechanics or the chance in the game. A player will roll his attack normally. But, instead of using an AC, he rolls his defense. The defense number is akin to the character Taking Ten on his Defense throw, right? If a character has +3 Parry, then his Parry AC is 13. Instead of using that 13 AC, the player rolls a d20 +3 to represent his Parry AC, returning a number between 4 and 23.

The percentage chance to hit the character remains the exact same--only the method used for attack and defense change.

Now, here's the kicker. Player rolls all dice, right? So, when a bad guy attacks, the GM Takes Ten on the attack throw. There is no throw. If the guy is +6 attack, he'd normall throw a d20 +6, right? Well, under the player-rolls-all-dice method, the attack is always 16. It's like having an attack armor class. The player rolls his defense against the attack of 16.

How do you handle criticals? Just reverse the dice. If a weapon gets a critical check on a 19-20, then it happens under this method on a defense roll of 1 or 2. Simple as that.



Just so that we're all on the same page, let's go through a simple example: Thrallan is +4 attack and +5 on his Dodge defense (normal Dodge AC 15).

He's fighting Caelis, who is +6 attack (now a flat 16), and he's +3 with his Parry, giving him AC 13 parry defense.

Let's give Thrallan the initiative. The attack round would play out like this...

1. Thrallan attacks. Player rolls d20 +4 against Caelis' AC 13 Parry defense. Any hit means Player rolls Caelis' damage against his own character (because "player rolls all dice").

2. If Caelis is still standing, Caelis can attack. The attack is a straight 16. Thrallan must roll defense or be hit. Thrallan's defense is d20 +5 Dodge Defense.



The reason why I'm looking at this is that I think this method has the opportunity to both speed up combat and encourage a more cinematic experience.

The game is sped up because you've cut the dice throws in half. You're no longer throwing for the bad guys. The GM has static numbers for attacks and defense for all the opponents.

This takes a load of work off the GM. He can litterally write down stats on a line of notebook paper and use that to narrate the fight.

Assume Caelis has the initiative when reading the below:

"You see Caelis, a barbarian of the Grath clan, coming towards you. His sword is out. His walk is determined. And, you can see the hatred in his eyes. Blood Feud."

"I pull my weapon out."

"As you do, the hulking barbarian raises his sword with both hands and brings it down towards your right shoulder as if it were a meat cleaver!"

Player rolls Dodge defense of d20 +5 vs. Caelis' attack of 16. Player rolls a natural "1".

"You're not quick enough! Roll damage!"

Player checks for critical, which is successful, and rolles Caels' damage against his own character. Damage is doubled, but Thrallan still has a few hit points left.

"That blade came down, and you started to dodge, but it caught you on the shoulder and upper arm, slicing off some skin. Blood streams down your arm."

"I recoil, sling my sword around, and with all my weight onto my right foot and slam the point towards my enemy."

Player rolls attack of d20 + 4 against Caelis' Parry AC 13. It's a miss.

"The tip of your sword extends toward his gut, but he twirls his weapon around low in front of him, knocking your sword off its mark."



This is a pretty interesting way to play the game, is it not? I think it may speed up the game quite a bit and keep the battles exciting.

OTOH, will it be boring for the GM? Not getting to roll dice and particpate in the fight by controlling the NPCs is part of the fun for the GM. Would the GM still enjoy the game only narrating it?

Thoughts?

 

[HoboGod]

If you can trust your players, go for it. I have my doubts of my players' honesty, so I certainly wouldn't.

As for "speeding up combat," adding more dice has always slowed down combat in my experience. Also, talk it over with your players before implementing this. Your players might feel that one central figure rolling everything that would doom your character is part of the excitement.

 

[Water Bob]

If you can trust your players, go for it. I have my doubts of my players' honesty, so I certainly wouldn't.

What's trust got to do with it? As GM, you describe a swing, knowing it's a 16 attack. They roll defense. You see the die. If the total, with mods, is higher than 16, then the attack misses. If the sum is equal to or lower than 16, your bad guys hits, and you just go straight to damage.

Where is there room for underhandedness?

As for "speeding up combat," adding more dice has always slowed down combat in my experience.

Actually, you roll the same number of dice. The player rolls an attack and defense. The NPCs never roll anything. As GM, you always Take Ten on an NPC throw.

It should actually speed up the game.

 

[HoboGod]

Ah, I see what you're getting at. Functionally, it works something like this:
Player's Attack: functions normally
Player's AC: functions abnormally as 1d20+(AC-10)
Monster's Attack: functions abnormally as (10+attack bonus)
Monster's AC: functions normally

Okay, that's a different ball-game entirely. If 8 goblins attack a PC, instead of rolling a handful of d20s, you tell the PC to roll their defense 8 times. I don't think it speeds up combat, but this actually solves one of my pet peeves in regards to fighting a zerg rush. Normally, the PCs don't really grasp the full weight of the horde with which I attack, but if they have to roll a dice for every time they get hit, it feels like how the combat should be. Also, I think this is exactly the kind of system I'd wish to use when I simultaneously take the role of DM and PC, running through a premade adventure, I sometimes forget if I'm supposed to be the player or the monster.

However, the honesty point still persists in my mind.
Player: "I rolled a 19 plus 7 to attack with my longsword, then a 16 plus 7 to confirm critical."
DM:"Okay, you've confirmed crit, roll your damage."
Player:"Awesome! I did 34 damage."
DM:"Well, six bugbears smack you up, roll defense"
Player:"Well, my AC bonus is an 8, I rolled 18, 3, 16, 17, 16, and another natural 20! I'm so lucky today! Can I get a pity reroll on that 3?"
DM:*glares*

I hate players so much, sometimes. But hey, maybe if they have to roll dice more often, they'll be less inclined to lie, dice drop, and dice poke. Using cheat codes to get through an annoying level is one thing, but only playing a game on god mode is just an act of mental masturbation. /end rant/

 

[WalrusThief]

Ooooh, me likey.

This looks like it could do a lot to speed things up in-game, give the players a more daring experience, and allow me to focus more on actually fleshing out the game.

[edit: What about opposed checks? Like Trip attempts, Disarms, Grapples? You'd be making the character roll twice, which I think would get confusing.]

 

[Water Bob]

Ah, I see what you're getting at. Functionally, it works something like this:
Player's Attack: functions normally
Player's AC: functions abnormally as 1d20+(AC-10)
Monster's Attack: functions abnormally as (10+attack bonus)
Monster's AC: functions normally

You got it. The player rolls the dice. Anything the NPCs do is converted to a target number...a DC.

If 8 goblins attack a PC, instead of rolling a handful of d20s, you tell the PC to roll their defense 8 times.

The idea is to make it more exciting and cinematic. The GM isn't fuddling around with dice throws and modifiers for his NPC bad guys. If he's got 8 goblins to attack the players, and they're +2 to hit, then he's already written the DC 12 next to the goblins.

Goblin - DC 12, AC 13

That's what you'd need.

"The goblin is a dodgy little fellow. You swing (player rolls attack vs AC 13 and misses), and he scoots out of the way adroitly, hops three times, and somehow lands next to your left leg, jabbing his little dagger at you (player rolls defense vs DC 12 and is successful). You slap the small blade away and go in for your next attack (round two, player rolls attack vs AC 13....)"

Smooth gameplay is what it's all about. The GM can focus on narrative, not mechanics for his NPCs.

DM:"Well, six bugbears smack you up, roll defense"
Player:"Well, my AC bonus is an 8, I rolled 18, 3, 16, 17, 16, and another natural 20! I'm so lucky today! Can I get a pity reroll on that 3?"
DM:*glares*

I would play them all out singlely, and describe it in the present tense as is seen in a good action novel or when you're telling your friends about a great scene in a film.

That focusing on mechanics as you describe above wouldn't work for me at all.

Ooooh, me likey.

This looks like it could do a lot to speed things up in-game, give the players a more daring experience, and allow me to focus more on actually fleshing out the game.

[edit: What about opposed checks? Like Trip attempts, Disarms, Grapples? You'd be making the character roll twice, which I think would get confusing.]

This isn't something I've come up with. It's an official 3.5 Variant.

Check this link: Players Roll All The Dice :: d20srd.org

 

[HoboGod]

I would play them all out singlely, and describe it in the present tense as is seen in a good action novel or when you're telling your friends about a great scene in a film.

That focusing on mechanics as you describe above wouldn't work for me at all.

I know, I know. I'm just illustrating an example of how dishonesty could play a factor. This is more or less the way my group would play it out, though. We're mostly gamers, so when the dice roll, we already have the concept of what it means. When the dice roll high or low, then the entire group, NEVER just the DM, starts describing what body parts go flying and the Jon Woo style action.

 

[Alzrius]

I've been thinking a lot about this "Player Rolls All Dice" variant of the d20 game. Have you seen this? It's pretty cool.

Isn't that from Fencing & Firearms, by Spes Magna Games?

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Isn't that from Fencing & Firearms, by Spes Magna Games?

He should have provided a link to make it easier for people to follow his conversation. I belive it's from UA and they've got it up on the d20 Hypertext SRD. You can find it here:
Players Roll All The Dice :: d20srd.org

It's also been noted that the base number that should be used is 12 not 11 as was originally in the rules.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

This is a pretty interesting way to play the game, is it not? I think it may speed up the game quite a bit and keep the battles exciting.

OTOH, will it be boring for the GM? Not getting to roll dice and particpate in the fight by controlling the NPCs is part of the fun for the GM. Would the GM still enjoy the game only narrating it?

Thoughts?

If you're referring to the bit that I linked to at the d20 SRD, then yeah it works fine. It's been discussed a number of time before and the agreement is that 12 should be used instead of 11 (which the rules say to use, not 10).

Speeding up the game.... it sorta does I guess. Personally I found it more useful in terms of keeping the players engaged. If they're rolling dice when it's not their turn, they're paying more attention to what's going on. Otherwise it's easy for them to sit back and turn off for the 10 minutes or whatever it takes for it to roll around to them.

As for the GM's fun being participating in the fight... I guess some GMs are that way. I personally don't derive my fun from rolling dice. So I'm just fine with off-loading dice rolling to my players, who are usually dice monkeys. As a GM, I find there's plenty of stuff for me to keep track of so it can be helpful to let someone else worry about rolling the dice as well.