Feats Not Created Equal

[ares71]

My group has most of the 3.5 expansion books. I have noticed the HUGE (almost ridiculous) number of feats now available. Given that the average character will not likely have more than a dozen feats through level 20, does it seem that some are just not created equal and are rarely ever chosen? With hundreds and hundreds to choose from, many are just never used unless someone is trying for a Prestige Class.

Many feats are quite valuable and are used more frequently in combat (ie Weapon focus, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Finesse).

Some feats, particuarly those that relate to skill checks seem very rarely used (escpecially Skill Focus), Alertness being the only skills related feat anyone in any of my groups has ever taken. Even feats like Iron Will that improve saves are rarely choosen either.

Others, such as Toughness, are only valuable at 1st level and become nearly worthless at higher levels (compare it to Improved Toughness from Complete Warrior).

Others such as the various armor and shield proficiency feats seem far too expensive to spend a feat on. If your mage wants to learn how to fight in plate mail and shield without armor check penalty he would have to take 4 feats (or 1 level of fighter). This is just too high a cost and would be considered a waste of feats by most players. Compare it to learning a new language which only costs a skill point.

Frankly, I'd like to see Feats redone and broken down into 3 types:

1) Initial Character Creation Feats (and Flaws) that can only be taken at character creation. Includes all the various regional or background feats.

2) Minor feats. Say that all characters get 1/level. These have very minor game impact and would include stuff like Skill Focus and the other Skill based feats. Include the Armor and Shield Feats, and the Martial and Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Also, would include some of the Lesser Metamagic and Item Creation feats. Would also include the Mounted Combat Feats, since they are so rarely used.

3) Major Feats. This would be as per the standard feat chart and includes all the most useful and powerful feats that have more powerful game effects, such as Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Energy Substitution, Natural Spell, Spring Attack, etc.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Thanee]

They are absolutely overusing the feat mechanics. Everything which halfway resembles a feat becomes one. That way you have so many feats, that - because the basics still need to be covered first - only rarely if ever come into play.

But Iron Will is a rather good feat, really. A great feat for fighters and rogues.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

2) Minor feats. Say that all characters get 1/level. These have very minor game impact and would include stuff like Skill Focus and the other Skill based feats. Include the Armor and Shield Feats, and the Martial and Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Also, would include some of the Lesser Metamagic and Item Creation feats. Would also include the Mounted Combat Feats, since they are so rarely used.

Actually, I think the concept of feats in DND was a big mistake. As soon as they introduced them in 3E, I told my fellow players that they would just become a big arms race.

And, they have.

With regard to your concept here, however, I really disagree. All you are doing here is making the arms race different, not better.

For example, I have a psion right now who is seriously contemplating taking a martial weapon at 3rd level. This is a major decision for that character and is basically game defining. If the psion could just pick up a martial weapon feat at any level, it would make the decision a no brainer and not the challenge it currently is.

Plus, many of your non-combatant types would do that a lot.

It cheapens the game by making the lesser feats too accessible.

JMO.

 

[Piratecat]

I'll slide this into General Discussion, which is a bit more appropriate.

 

[Crothian]

Ya, feats aren't equal, classes aren't equal, spells aren't equal, skills aren't equal......There is nice balance in the game but if you look hard enough it will be easy to find the low and high powered ones. But dispite that I've found vbery few that are too weak to ever take like toughness and few that are so strong they need to be banned from the game.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I tend to see the "weak" feats more as "niche" feats. They're good for constructing a specific character, if you're going for something that doesn't exactly gel with the basic class templates...if you want your sorcerer to wield a whip, for example, or you want to be some kind of special prodigy (the +2 to 2 skills feats, or skill focus). I also like giving them as bonuses in prestige classes, altenate races and alternate base classes. For example, Run is one of those feats nobody bothers taking, but it can really save your butt if you have to escape something. It's nice to discover you earned it in the same way the ranger gets Endurance when you really need to get the hell out of Dodge, right now. Remember, you only need to outrun your party members who don't have Run.

 

[WayneLigon]

No, they are not all created equal but that's to be expected. There's no way to actually completely balance any game system without getting rid of flexibility; the only way to actually balance a game is to make every character the same.

Some feats are going to be better than others, that's to be expected. Some feats are going to be useful to only a small section of gamers. Toughness is pretty useless.. unless you're a Wizard or Sorcerer. Then it becomes pretty darn good. Nevertheless it's one I personally would change. The various skill ones are not that good... unless you're one of the classes with 2 skill points per level and have no Int bonus. It makes for a good boost.

You could still change when characters get them; look at Andy Collins' website and his Umber campaign description. The world is very harsh, so he changed the feat acqusition rules.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

With hundreds and hundreds to choose from, many are just never used unless someone is trying for a Prestige Class.

I have zero problems with dinky feats whose nearly-exclusive use is as a prerequisite to Prestige Classes. I wished more Prestige Classes required this.

The hundreds and hundreds to choose from doesn't bother terribly. I have a large home-brew setting I've worked on forever where I am restricting vast numbers of feats from expansion books to specific cultures and regions. Lemonade out of lemons, so to speak.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[jmucchiello]

Frankly, I'd like to see Feats redone and broken down into 3 types

Personally, I just wish there weren't any maneuver feats. Everyone should be able to cleave and whirlwind attack. The feat should just mitigate penalties associated with using the maneuver. Maneuvers could still have prerequisites, but anyone meeting the base prerequisites should be able to try the maneuver. Whirlwind attack is a -5 penalty an attacks made against all targets within reach. Cannot be attempted until BAB 4+.

But I wouldn't recommend adding more feats to characters. If you feel a feat is too weak, boost it in some what. Want more skill focus, make it +4. Want more Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude? Make them +3. Etc.

 

[Humanophile]

Bloat is part of the system. And while I'd be up in arms if you had options turning out better than the PHB standbys, for the most part I see a small handfull of system pluggers, and a large number of pure flavor. And while actually using all that flavor would be like dumping my whole fridge into a saucepan, I like at least the sourcebooks attempted goal of trying to have a little something that everyone could use.

But as long as sourcebook feat X doesn't usurp meat-and-potato feats like Power Attack, I have no problems having them available. It saves me headache making a given character just a touch more colorful, while at the same time not punishing players without said book.