Female gamers: Weal or woe?

[Doug McCrae]

The original post evokes two linked pieces of immediate advice:

Imprimis: Stop playing with sweaty, desperate virgins
Secundus: Stop being one yourself

Oh come now. Sweaty, desperate virgins are the rock upon which our whole hobby is built.

 

[Piratecat]

The original post evokes two linked pieces of immediate advice:

Imprimis: Stop playing with sweaty, desperate virgins
Secundus: Stop being one yourself

Following those two pieces of advice will be a service, not just to you and your playgroup, but to the hobby and larger society as a whole.

Palecur, welcome to the boards. I'm sure you read the rules. One of the most important is don't insult people. Your post is completely out of line.

It's okay if you don't agree with Shieldheart. Discuss the issue. But don't make it personal, because that'll get you booted.

 

[Piratecat]

Shieldheart, I know you were blaming the guys, but the initial post really didn't sound that way. Anyways, my best advice would be to take each person on their own merits.

I've gamed with women for decades; even my high school group had a girl in it, and that was back in '81. Personally, I find the game is a lot more fun with a mixed perspective.

 

[palecur]

Palecur, welcome to the boards. I'm sure you read the rules. One of the most important is don't insult people. Your post is completely out of line.

It's okay if you don't agree with Shieldheart. Discuss the issue. But don't make it personal, because that'll get you booted.

*shrug* the original post was comically insulting in its manchild cluelessness itself, but as you will.

 

[Gailbraithe]

I don't want to walk into a firestorm, but I'm not convinced by some of these analogies that are being tossed around.

The three analogies I've seen tossed out are:

women:men::nerds:normal people
women:men::Jews:non-Jews
women:men::blacks:whites

I'm not really sure I buy any of these as meaningful analogies, particularly in the situation we're discussing here. That's a very simplistic way of looking at things that I think glosses over some very non-trivial differences between the relationships described above.

If one surveys this thread, you'll notice that there is a strong correlation between having positive experiences of mixed gender groups and playing with married couples. I've experienced this myself -- the only time mixed genders hasn't introduced an additional set of headaches to running the game was the occasions in which the female player in the group was married to or in a pre-existing relationship with one of the male players.

I think it's a little ridiculous to immediately leap to insulting armchair psychology, or veiled accusations of sexism, simply because some people choose not to be ideologically blind to the existence of sexual tension.

Any small, mixed gender group composed of single people is going to experience some degree of internal sexual tension, unless the group is by some freak coincidence entirely composed of asexuals and celibates. It doesn't require any sexism at all to find the soap operas that sexual tensions within

Like I know that if a remotely attractive and personable single woman who was a good gamer joined my current (all male) group, there would be problems. Because 3/5ths of the group is single, and that entire 3/5ths of the group thinks it would be awesome to meet an attractive and personable single woman into role-playing games. It wouldn't be her fault that we (I'm one of the three, and I know I couldn't resist) would turn into a bunch of hyper-competitive jackasses and get totally caught up in trying to impress her, but it would happen.


That doesn't mean that we're socially maladjusted, or a bunch of sexist goons. And it doesn't mean that I'm a sexist jerk for thinking I'd sooner toss a live grenade in my game room than invite a pretty single girl to play with us. We're just normal people, and normal people are attracted to people with similar interests, and normal people get jealous and competitive and stupid when love and sex are on the line. And that is counter-productive to the sort of light entertainment I look for in gaming. Maybe some people would find real art growing out that sort of tension, but I never wanted to be a member of Fleetwood Mac.

So there's a HUGE difference between between what's implied by shieldheart's comment and what's implied by various people's clever reworkings. Racial tension and sexual tension are two very different animals, and comparing the two is -- IMHO -- rather ridiculous.

The only sexist element to this question is the way it is always phrased as a question of women playing, but this is almost inevitable when the hobby is so skewed towards male participation. Any debate occurring within a subculture that skews 80% male is going to end up skewing towards a male perspective. If the audience for rpgs skewed 80% female, the debate would be all about whether or not men create problems in rpg groups.
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[shieldheart]

Shieldheart, I know you were blaming the guys, but the initial post really didn't sound that way. Anyways, my best advice would be to take each person on their own merits.

I've gamed with women for decades; even my high school group had a girl in it, and that was back in '81. Personally, I find the game is a lot more fun with a mixed perspective.

The post was intended to be controversial. I was hoping for some debate, maybe a good point or two. I didn't think the responses would be so negative. A lot of people seem to get off calling me a bigot when all I wanted were opinions.

There were some constructive posts sharing positive experiences with female gamers which I was hoping for. There were some posts telling me to get laid, which I expected. What I didn't expect were the accusations of sexism and racism. Hate crime is a pretty big deal and while my post was controversial, I certainly did not slander women or any other groups of people.

Overall, I'd say I'm pretty disappointed with the moral ineptitude of some people who have the gall to accuse me of hate crime over so benign a post.

 

[Eric Tolle]

I'm pretty sure if you took the time to read the post, you'd see that I make a point of blaming the male gamers for a lot of these social interaction issues.

Well there's an argument for them to get over it, soonest. Aren't you the guy who wears the Viking hat? instead of coddling them, you need to slap them a few times, slam them into their seats and roar "YOU WILL PLAY WITH WHOEVER I TELL YOU TO PLAY WITH!"

Do it! It's good for them.

I don't recall judging anyone on any merits. If you want to say that there are no complications when a poker-esque group of guys have a girl thrown into the mix, that's fine. Calling me racist for contemplating the possibility is low and uninspired.

If they're emotionally over the age of 17, then no, there shouldn't be any problems. Just slap 'em a round a few times, and start the game. I'd have about as much patience with people like that as I would with, well, you.

Don't throw your generic philosophy at me like I don't get it. I treat people the way they deserve to be treated. Just cause you're spouting anti-racist whistleblowing garbage at me doesn't mean I condone racism. That's just dumb.

No, I didn't call you a racist. You're the one standing up waving your arms and screaming "I AM NOT A RACIST! I AM NOT A RACIST!" I mean, this is sad: it's a perfect example of why both satire and metaphor are dead concepts.

 

[Dire Bare]

PS Firefly sucks.

*gasp* Oh no you didn't!!!

 

[Eric Tolle]

*gasp* Oh no you didn't!!!

Did he go there?

Oh yeah, he went there.

I'm sorry everyone, the current topic for this thread will have to be put on hold, while we pile on the Firefly hater.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That doesn't mean that we're socially maladjusted, or a bunch of sexist goons.

Actually, imho, and no personal insult to you, your own words, but that is precisely what it means. If you can't (or rather, won't) keep yourselves under control, then I have no idea how you even manage to do work, or operate in any kind of situation where they might be single attractive women involved and the main objective isn't to hit on them.

It's mind-boggling to me. We've played with single women in a group full of single guys before, but because we were, y'know, grown-ups, whilst there might have been sexual tension, no-one became a "hyper-competitive jackass". You're just copping out (in a discussion about people attempting to cop off, hehe) of any responsibility for your own behaviour, and saying "OMG gurls turn dudes into ragin' dogs and they caint help it none!". I mean wth? Are you from another planet? I've met guys who refuse to keep themselves under control, and you know what, I wouldn't game with them. I can understand being concerned about changes in social dynamics, but the idea that attractive women turn all men into howling dogs instantly, which you specifically endorse is insulting to both genders.

shieldheart - Pretending to be surprised at your reception when you seemingly intentionally phrased your post in the most sexist way reasonably possible seems pretty damn silly to me. If you wanted debate, you could have phrased it very differently.

Also, "moral ineptitude"? What does that even mean?

Doug McCrae - Preach it brother!