Fencer Class - now v3

[generalhenry]

ok so it's fighter ranger dual class with light armor pasted on
(TWF rangers often use scale armor)

Personally I think the swashbuckler and the duelist are better made as rogues
rapier + light shield and rapier + dagger

While sneaking and back stabbing are the normal ways to play a rogue. All you really need is combat advantage. Feinting, standing on tables, clever distractions. And with fighter multiclass you can even offtank.


fighter/ranger and ranger/fighter already exist too.


Another problem is that you class optimizes around duel wielding rapiers, which is awkward.


Now the basic goal is a TWF class other than the ranger, and I think you're heading down the wrong path since the rapier + dagger fencing style is well enough created with the rogue class.

So stepping back, I do think there's room for more than one TWF class, but I don't think fencer is that class. I think barbarian is the class, a THF and TWF brute.

 

[deleteme123456]

RE: Evasive Dodge

I don't know exactly how an Interrupt in response to being hit works. I would instead make this an Immediate Interrupt to being targeted by the attack, or add extra text "if this movement takes you out of range of the original effect, the attack misses you (if the attack has effects on a miss, those still apply)." And between those choices, I would vote for the first because it's a lot cleaner.

Overall this class has too much AC, even for a defender. Maybe if the heroic tier feat was a +1 feat bonus so it doesn't stack with the paragon tier armor specialization feats (do you really want rogue and rangers cross-classing into this just to pick up an extra +1 AC?).

 

[Khaalis]

This class is rather moot now that we know we are getting a TWF Fighter option in Martial Power. That, along with some rogue multiclassing (or vice-versa) should be enough to pull off a Fencer/Duelist style build.

 

[J-Dog]

I love the concept.

Two things of note:

The Sweeping Strike is the same as the Dire Wolverine Strike but it does more damage. I would suggest lowering it down to 1[w] + Dex to bring it into line.

I would suggest going with the original Riposte (similar to the Rogue’s ability). The immediate reaction at will seems a bit powerful.

Anyway, thanks for the class. I like the concept, and I would love to play this type of character in a campaign. Keep it up.

Peace.
J-Dog

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Some notes:

i like the concept.

problem: riposte strike is overpowered and should not be a regular at will.
It should be a class feature instead and you only chose a single at-will. Maybe even 2. (this prevents half elves from stealing it)

problem: shield style is too good. It should be restricted to light shields. This prevents you from learning to wield a heavy shield per feat. Especially since shield specialization at level 11 is easily got.

problem: AC 21 possible at level 1 and with dexterity as prerequisite... reducing the bonus to +1 seems bad either. Enforcing a good secondary stat seems the only possible solution. I guess having the marking punishment based on stength (base attack seems ok. Maybe add Str as damage on a miss will make getting only an 18 in dexterity even more desirable as it leaves you some strong secondaries.) Maybe adding charisma to damage as a striker feature will also help.

 

[mneme]

You know what would be cool? An undead necromantic fencer.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Fffff. You've got both Twin Strike and an At Will Interrupt Attack in there. Twin Strike (well, Double Strike) on its own is enough to put any such class right at the top of the striker heap (challenged only by the Ranger) with no other striker class features. Riposte Strike pushes your long term DPR ahead of the ranger. Both these at wills need to die. Also you've screwed up your combat challenge - your fencer needs to be making melee basic attacks with dexterity.

Two Blade Style is IMO silly. Wielding two rapiers or smallswords just wouldn't work well and wasn't what fencers did. What I want to see the default fencer offhand weapon being is one of the historical ones. Main Gauche (or just dagger), buckler, cloak, mail palmed glove.

And I think you're seriously overthinking and are going for the wrong basic class here. The fencer isn't a version of the classic strength fighter, he's a version of the classic rogue that loses sneak attack and gains Defender Aura (and some sort of mark punishment).

 

[Unwise]

What if the reposte attack worked like this:

Immediate Interrupt
Trigger = missed by an attack and it is not your turn
Effect = You make the 1[w] attack on the enemy
Miss = The triggering attack instead hits you

I think this would add a really interesting option. You can choose to do some fancy swordwork, but if it does not pay off, you are leaving yourself open.

A reposte should come off a miss, not a hit, as you have almost by definition parried the attack.

Other options include.
1) It is a full blown MBA, but you then cannot use any attack power with your standard action on your next turn. This is pretty cool, as it allows people to use total defense during their own turn. Or be extra mobile, swinging from chandaliers etc. So it is not really an ability that increases damage, but rather one that increases other options.

2) It is an encounter power, used when you are hit, if it hits the enemy, it gives them -4 to their attack.

3) Maybe consider it being tied to the use of daily powers or action points. Look to the Spellblade guys for examples. They have a reposte attack based on their use of their encounter power as an added extra. (Note they only get one encounter power) So maybe tie in the reposte to another power.

 

[Neonchameleon]

What if the reposte attack worked like this:

Immediate Interrupt
Trigger = missed by an attack and it is not your turn
Effect = You make the 1[w] attack on the enemy
Miss = The triggering attack instead hits you

I think this would add a really interesting option. You can choose to do some fancy swordwork, but if it does not pay off, you are leaving yourself open.

That would be interesting. I'd just want to see the maths.

1) It is a full blown MBA, but you then cannot use any attack power with your standard action on your next turn. This is pretty cool, as it allows people to use total defense during their own turn.

Weak but sometimes useful.

2) It is an encounter power, used when you are hit, if it hits the enemy, it gives them -4 to their attack.

No problem with this at all.

3) Maybe consider it being tied to the use of daily powers or action points. Look to the Spellblade guys for examples. They have a reposte attack based on their use of their encounter power as an added extra. (Note they only get one encounter power) So maybe tie in the reposte to another power.

Perhaps.

The problem is the extra damage roll at almost no opportunity cost. (Hell, you could make it [dex] damage rather than [1W] and although fiddly it wouldn't have the mega issues that the current one does.

 

[Unwise]

Perhaps.

The problem is the extra damage roll at almost no opportunity cost. (Hell, you could make it [dex] damage rather than [1W] and although fiddly it wouldn't have the mega issues that the current one does.

I agree. In this case I was imagining an opportunity cost. Like the Spellblade guy has that as his power one level. From that point on, whenever he uses his other encounter power, it also has this particular benefit. He in effect gave up another ability to do this though.

If it were tied to the use of APs it could just be a feature of a paragon path.


Regarding option (1) I think it is a decently powerful option. It basically means if you give up your at-will riders (by using the MBA) but instead get a move, full defense, second wind, or use a skill in a skill challenge. Even if you did the most boring thing possible and just did full-defense, that is kind of like having an at-will that gives +2 to all defenses as an effect.

What I like about it though is the way it gives you the ability to do a full-action duping, or climbing or acrobatics. All of these things are otherwise impractical, but not being able to attack encourages you to do them. A Fencer would be a beast at in-combat skill challenges, as I think they should be.