Feudalism for D&D

Celebrim

Legend
They are, tautologically, of analogical use at best. :)

There are three (at least three) serious problems with analogies.

First, to make a good one, you have to already fully understand both the thing you are speaking of and the thing you are making an analogy to. This is actually harder than simply speaking of the thing itself, but in practice people often will imagine that making an analogy is easier than discussing the subject. They do this usually because they don't realize they don't concretely understand the thing they are speaking of.

Second, in order to understand an analogy, the speaker has to fully understand the thing the analogy references and also what particular attribute you are mapping from the object of the analogy back to the subject. But you often have no way of knowing whether the person you are speaking to has this understanding, and communicating what feature you are mapping requires a high amount of clarity. Often, it's just better to speak with clarity on the thing itself, as an analogy is usually more likely to muddle understanding than clarify it. A favorite example of mine is in the bible there is a passage where the disciples go to Christ and say, "Why are you always speaking in parables?", and he says, "Because I don't want anyone to understand me."

But by far the biggest problem with analogies is that they are almost always misused as a proof statement rather than a means of clarification (or obfuscation). Pretty much anytime an analogy is used as proof, it's wrong and you are an idiot. The method of argument goes like this. "A and B have a similar feature. Therefore B is like this in another feature because A is like that in another feature." And that's just wrong. That's only going to be true if A and B have a one for one and onto relationship with each other in every feature, and generally speaking that's just never true. When it is true, A and B are indistinguishable, and if A and B are distinguishable then the argument by analogy may be false. Almost invariably, if you see this sort of argument by analogy offered, you are dealing with someone that is too stupid to bother debating with, because they will be too stupid to ever see why they are wrong in the first place.

Hence, my delight in seeing an analogy used correctly and well for a change.

Also, corporate structures and feaudalism are possibly more than analogical in relation; a startup entrepreneur and a post-apocalyptic warlord require similar mindsets, one could argue, and chains of command and delegation are naturally emergent features, I would propose.

This possibly true, but before you go extending your analogy too much, there are definitely features that led to the development of one that aren't found in the other. Beyond the problem of titles not being consistent across organizations or with the actual level of authority, I'm not sure the analogy works. However one other area that both have in common is that generally, if you want to win the allegiance of a venture capitalist, you have to give him a stake in the ownership and that's precisely the method by which disparate interests are organizing in a feudal society. They idea in feudalism in theory or in the mythic chivalric texts seemed was to build this sense that all the parts were in it together as an extended kindred, and certainly intermarriage was a big part of feudalism. A feudal warlord in a society that has experienced massive social and political upheaval, understands that his underlings are loyal to him only to the extent that it enhances their own survival. But in practice what often happened in feudalism is that the individual franchises went their own way and ignored as best as they could the influence of the nominal head of the corporation. But again, here I'm taking the analogy too far. It's only meaningful if you already understand both sides of it.

And very important issues in the rise of feudalism like the shortage of currency, the difficulty in long distance communication, and the break down in the rule of law and a willingness to enforce your will by military force generally aren't features of a modern free market landscape.
 

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Thanks for all the comments so far.

To focus the collective wisdom to the practical, how would you set up a simple feudal template for purposes of fast D&D world creation?

In other words, I've got a Kingdom of Kingliness, that is say 400 miles square. What sort of very simple system would you create that someone could use to divide up its land mass into various fiefs with accompanying noble ranks in an hour or less? Obviously, I'm not looking for historical accuracy--just fast flavor.
 

Dandu

First Post
We could have a set up with city administrators, regional governors, and a princeps overseeing each feudal domain that makes up the kingdom.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
You have the Kingdom of Kingliness.

Divide it up into baronies that are about 16x16 miles across. Pick a few baronies and reserve them for the King's estates, religious orders, royal forests, major cities, and the occasional largely unused land where ruins and monsters can be. The remaining 150-160 or so are the Barons of the Kingdom and make up the minor nobility. Each Barony has a small castle, a small town of 300-400 people, and 7-12 villages and hamlets of 60-80 people. Each village has a Knight who is in service to the baron and who has a manor, 12-15 serf farmholds, a few craftsman, and 1-4 freeholders who hold property for whatever reasons - probably because at some point back, they had an ancestor in the nobility.

Now group 6-7 of the Baronies together. Promote one of the Baronies to being a Count, give him a bigger castle, and call the collection a county. All the other Barons are now vassals of the Count. Randomly promote one of the towns in the new County up to a city of 800-1200 persons. Give it a mayor, some guildmasters, and some minor baronettes and the like who owe their title to being relatively rich. You should now have 25-30 Counties. Promote a 4-5 of the Counts who are near the borders of the Kingdom up to Marquises. Give them much bigger castles. Also the knights in the villages each have a simple Keep rather than a manor. The borders are where the action is, so they are fortified.

Now look at your map, and merge 2-3 counties that don't have Marquises together 5-6 times. These are your Duchies, they have Dukes, and they have big castles like the Marquises. Pick one city in each duchy and promote it up to a city of say 2000-4000 persons. Note that some but not all Counts are vassals of the Dukes. Those Counts that aren't vassals think that they are nearly as important as Dukes. If you want, you can randomly retitle a few of those Earls, but I'm personally not a fan of that. All those Dukes, Counts, Marquises are direct vassals of the King, at least in theory. These are your peerage, or your great nobles of the Kingdom.

Now, all this is your core feudal hierarchy. Go back to that first step were you left some baronies unfilled. Pick 20 or so of them to be the King's Estates and Royal Forests. This is how the King maintains sufficient personal power to keep those unruly vassals in check. Where you have two of them adjacent put your capital city in one and the King's Palace in the next one. The capital city has about 12,000 people in it and is real metropolis. It's also got lots of little nobles running around trying to marry up, bourgeois trying to pretend that they are noble, penniless nobles with more taxes and debt than money trying to figure out how get out of debt possibly by marrying the bourgeois, families of counts trying to make appearance in the courts and fashionable places, and peerage hanging around running the country (if they are in the favor of the king at least). All these nobles, thousands of them, are all related to each other at, at least the level of 5th cousins, and they all have petty grievances and domestic disputes that in turn have serious political consequences for the whole nation. At any one time, a third of them want to kill another third of them, and the remaining third are egging them on hoping to claim their property after the scuffle is over. For real medieval drama, pick about 1/5th to 1/3rd of the baronies to be occupied by people of a slightly different ethnic group, possibly with their own dialect or language, who for whatever historical reason have gotten folded into the Kingdom but who are still more or less maintaining their own national identity.

Draw a river running through the country adjacent to the capital city. Put smaller rivers by a couple of the other big cities. Pick one or two borders to be ocean front. Pick 2-3 of the undistributed baronies near rivers or oceans to be large cities of 6000-8000 people who've basically grown themselves right out of the feudal system by gobbling up the land and rendering the old aristocracy mute. Any nobles here are of the mercantile type, and you've got burgeoning trade and mercantilism going on and lots of freepersons rather protective of their rights. The city and the major or council that run it are the defacto barons here. Then figure out which Bishops and Abbots and other tangential buy in feudal lords hold the baronial sized fiefs you haven't yet distributed. Anywhere left over put swamps, moors, mountains and other undesirable land. Add some Bishops for all the big cities. Put an Archbishop in the Capital.

Start naming all this crap, which will take you like 40 hours all by itself and even then you won't get to all the villages, knights, and other rigmarole much less all the heraldic devices you'll need or the family trees of who relates to who that you need to make it all make sense. However, in broad outline you'll have a medieval kingdom in all its elaborate glory.

The fast version of that is to do the above, then only name the things in the very small area of the kingdom that the PC's start in. Work down from the top when you have time, and expand laterally as the PC's move about. After 3-4 years of gaming, you'll have done most of the work of putting everything together.
 
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Beleriphon

Totally Awesome Pirate Brain
As a quick aside the Marquis title is the local lord on the Marches (borders) of a kingdom and should in theory be roughly equal in rank to Count/Earl sort of level.
 
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Balesir

Adventurer
All of which covers lords temporal, but there may be three other, "special" types of lord:

Lords Spiritual: Bishops might have holdings equivalent to a Baron, Prince-Bishops/Archbishops equivalent to a Count/Earl. Monasteries may also hold land - a single order might hold the equivalent of a manor or two right up to the equivalent of a County.

Free Towns: some (probably not all) towns may be "freetowns" that are not subject to the local lord but run by a council that is responsible directly to the king.

Sheriffs: Some of the king's land (equivalent to smaller Count's holdings) may be held by special agents of the crown who serve at the king's pleasure (i.e. the holding is not heritable and the holder can even be dismissed whenever the king wishes). On a smaller scale, constables and bailiffs may hold the equivalent of individual baronies or manors; these holdings can be useful rewards that bring more income that fully infeudated estates and revert to the holder on the agent's death (if not before).

A mix of holdings is nice for any major lord, because:

- Barons tend to provide lots of troops, but little cash
- Towns provide lots of cash, but few or poor quality troops, and
- Church estates don't give much cash or troops, but provide religious kudos and reflected piety.
 


Balesir

Adventurer
Sounds like the makings of a great board game.
Well, if you want to include political game elements in the mix, the old "Birthright" campaign setting for AD&D2E is available as a PDF through DTRPG and has a nice system for all this stuff (as well as "region books" with some nice models taken from different cultures - all simplified/adjusted for game purposes...)
 



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