D&D 3E/3.5 Feyspires in 3.5

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Syltorian:

I am one of those guys still stuck in 3.5, with the only 4e book I own being the Eberron Campaign Setting. Now, there are some changes I don't like (cosmology, despite Keith Baker's excellent damage-control with Baator; dragonborn; etc) but equally, there is a lot I like. The information on Droaam, on the darker side of Vadalis, on Bel Shalor.

And then there are the Fey Spires. I really like the major ideas here.

Has anyone tried to retrofit them into 3.5? I would love to do so, but have some problems populating them.

3.5 Eladrin are quite different from those of 4e, being a celestial race which comes in many different shapes, and with a chaotic good alignment and subtype. They are not fey, though they come from Thelanis, and they are certainly not the type of fey which strikes the mood of the Fey Spires.

The inhabitants of the Fey Spires seem to be more on along the lines of the sinister, eerie creatures of the myths and legends, when people called them "fair folk" to avoid upsetting them; creatures with an alien mind which could be helpful one moment and murderous the next. Many remind me of the elves of Terry Pratchett's Discworld:

Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies, p.170

They are also creatures which are not unique enough to cause problems when entire populations centres must be explained. This works for the 4e Eladrin, yet I cannot find a creature in 3.5 (publications by Wizards and the Dragon/Dungeon magazines) to deploy as the inhabitants (rather than lords, for which some powerful fey creatures could be used) of the fey spires. While many aspects of Keith Baker's Iconic Bestiary: Classic Fey are great for fey-related campaigns, I still cannot find a creature to replace the 4e Eladrin (short of simply making them elves with a fey template, which seems a bit awkward). It need not have the actual abilities of 4e Eladrin, so long as it fits thematically.

Many thanks for helping me find a creature that fits in 3.5.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

Just out of curiosity, have you read The Fading Dream?

For my part, I don't consider a Ghaele eladrin to be the same species as the PC race known as "Eladrin", even if it adopts the same general appearance. I think of it as a caste system where each caste is a fundamentally different form of being. The ruling Ghaele are immortal, immensely powerful beings who embody particular concepts, whether as broad as "winter" or as specific as a particular forest or spire. The PC race of Eladrin are the lowest order of these spirits - mortal (if long-lived), far less powerful, and yet at the same time more versatile. The Queen of Dusk didn't learn to be a sorceress; her power is simply part of what she is. By contrast, a lower Eladrin will actually learn the arts of wizardry.

Essentially, I consider "Eladrin" to be the name of a culture more than a race; that culture incorporates a wide range of orders of fey, and mortals simply apply it to the lowest and most common form. Thus, all the 3.5 Eladrin are part of the Eladrin culture; while the Eladrin masses would essentially be elves with the fey template, or something similar.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Madfox11:

While I definitely share your opinion Keith that the celestial eladrin from 3e could and should be used in regards to the Spires, why would the eladrin be a different species?

Celestials in 3e evolve when they gain power either through personal actions or as the result of higher ranking members granting them a higher position (even for the chaotic good eladrin). Fey are beings of change and magic in Eberron (and most other settings). Why wouldn't something similar not happen here? After all, even in 4e higher level eladrin have names such as "courre of mischief" and "prince of winter", and while they look a bit more humanoid then their 3e celestial counterparts, that is easy to solve (in both directions).

Besides, I also always envisioned that what is learning or inborn talent is open for debate anyway. For example, my eladrin PC (a fighter/rogue/spy master) learned that he is actually the royal heir of the spire in the Mournland. While leveling I have been selecting feats, a paragon path and powers that are not even magical in nature but I explain as being part of my PC's fey nature that he is slowly discovering. It is not his spy master's power that allow him to let an enemy belief he is on their side for a short time in the middle of a fight, but his innate fey talent to befuddle the mind through charms. It is not his multi-class rogue feat that allow him to hide in normal concealment or use Stealth at full speed for 1 round/encounter, but his fey nature with illusions. Even his perfectly mundane talent in disguises will get a magical component. In the end he will have evolved into something like the Queen of Dust, and whether those powers were learned or innate is moot. Is he a fey lord with a close connection with trickery or is he a 30th level fighter/rogue/spy master/thief of legend with a feat, power and item selection that somehow highlights his magical nature?

Or am I simply misunderstanding what you wrote Keith and is this what you meant in the first place?

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

Besides, I also always envisioned that what is learning or inborn talent is open for debate anyway... Or am I simply misunderstanding what you wrote Keith and is this what you meant in the first place?

Indeed. I was speaking purely in terms of mechanics, in terms of addressing the question of what 3.5 monster would represent the "commoner" eladrin. I certainly agree that mechanics can mean different things for different people; just looking to 3.5 Eberron races, the Changeling's racial bonuses are supposed to reflect a natural gift for telepathy, but we never bother to come out and say that; likewise, in 4E, I often consider the class abilities of dragonmarked characters to be reflections of their marks, so a Storm Sorcerer with the Mark of Storms is a Storm Sorcerer BECAUSE of the Mark.

It's similar to the fact that in theory, it is possible for a rakshasa to steal the power of an Overlord and take its place. My point is that if it did so, it would mechanically cease to be a rakshasa and become an Overlord. The Overlord possesses innate abilities that a rakshasa doesn't; it's not simply a rakshasa with class levels, it's a different creature. The same holds true for the lord of a feyspire; it possesses innate abilities that "normal" eladrin - whatever statistics you decide to give them - do not.

Player characters are a special case. Is it possible for your eladrin character to become something akin to a ghaele? Sure. But does that mean you will possess the exact same mechanical abilities as a ghaele? No. Your example of justifying class abilities because of unlocking the fey nature makes perfect sense... but I didn't see that as the question that was being asked.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Syltorian:

Just out of curiosity, have you read The Fading Dream?

I have, though some time ago. I have picked it up and browsed through it again, but as I said in my other thread, it has been a busy week.

For my part, I don't consider a Ghaele eladrin to be the same species as the PC race known as "Eladrin", even if it adopts the same general appearance. I think of it as a caste system where each caste is a fundamentally different form of being. The ruling Ghaele are immortal, immensely powerful beings who embody particular concepts, whether as broad as "winter" or as specific as a particular forest or spire. The PC race of Eladrin are the lowest order of these spirits - mortal (if long-lived), far less powerful, and yet at the same time more versatile. The Queen of Dusk didn't learn to be a sorceress; her power is simply part of what she is. By contrast, a lower Eladrin will actually learn the arts of wizardry.

Essentially, I consider "Eladrin" to be the name of a culture more than a race; that culture incorporates a wide range of orders of fey, and mortals simply apply it to the lowest and most common form. Thus, all the 3.5 Eladrin are part of the Eladrin culture; while the Eladrin masses would essentially be elves with the fey template, or something similar.

Thanks!

Elves with the fey template it is, especially considering the races are related. 

The concept itself I understand, but still, few of these fey lords and ladies in the Fading Dream seem to be good, except possibly Tira and the Lord of the Spire of Emerald Lights. Not even these embody it. They care, strongly, about their own people, but are not champions of freedom and goodness as the members of the 3.5 Court of Stars were. So can I this solve this by claiming that are the "freedom-fighter" Eladrin of 3.5 simply a prominent group in one of Thelanis' realms, but not, as hitherto thought, the only one - leading the planar scholars to reach the wrong conclusions until the feyspires appeared? And strip the "good" subtype from the others?

Besides, I also always envisioned that what is learning or inborn talent is open for debate anyway. For example, my eladrin PC (a fighter/rogue/spy master) learned that he is actually the royal heir of the spire in the Mournland. While leveling I have been selecting feats, a paragon path and powers that are not even magical in nature but I explain as being part of my PC's fey nature that he is slowly discovering. It is not his spy master's power that allow him to let an enemy belief he is on their side for a short time in the middle of a fight, but his innate fey talent to befuddle the mind through charms. It is not his multi-class rogue feat that allow him to hide in normal concealment or use Stealth at full speed for 1 round/encounter, but his fey nature with illusions. Even his perfectly mundane talent in disguises will get a magical component. In the end he will have evolved into something like the Queen of Dust, and whether those powers were learned or innate is moot. Is he a fey lord with a close connection with trickery or is he a 30th level fighter/rogue/spy master/thief of legend with a feat, power and item selection that somehow highlights his magical nature?

I perfectly agree. Tied to this, I've always found that class abilities should not be limited to the accompanying fluff. You don't need to be from a tribal culture to lose yourself in battle-rage; bards need not be performers: there were enough inspiring politicians who could get crowds and armies to follow them without ever singing on stage. I agree with you that in a world, class-names should be irrelevant: a Bard is someone who records the lore of a tribe and passes it on in oral form, accompanied by rhyme and music. Whether or not he can cast spells and use magic. Unlocking abilities from heritage is a great story element; I do not know enough about 4e, but I love 3.5 for the possibility to mix-and-match (though I tend to ignore rules elements such as multiclassing penalties, favored class, and even in-class skills). Enjoy your character!

It's similar to the fact that in theory, it is possible for a rakshasa to steal the power of an Overlord and take its place. My point is that if it did so, it would mechanically cease to be a rakshasa and become an Overlord. The Overlord possesses innate abilities that a rakshasa doesn't; it's not simply a rakshasa with class levels, it's a different creature. The same holds true for the lord of a feyspire; it possesses innate abilities that "normal" eladrin - whatever statistics you decide to give them - do not.

That's another great idea. At the risk of derailing my own thread (though it will be worth it): I assume the new Overlord would be free, untrapped by the Silver Flame? Are rakshasa and prakhuthu able to feel personal loyalty to their Overlord (rather than its portfolio or simply basking in its power), and seek to work with the good guys to prevent one of their numbers from essentially eradicating their lord and usurping his place? And what would happen to the immortal overlord?

Player characters are a special case. Is it possible for your eladrin character to become something akin to a ghaele? Sure. But does that mean you will possess the exact same mechanical abilities as a ghaele? No. Your example of justifying class abilities because of unlocking the fey nature makes perfect sense... but I didn't see that as the question that was being asked.

While not the original question, it is a nice development. You answered the original question in your first post, so I am happy to see where the thread goes from here.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

The concept itself I understand, but still, few of these fey lords and ladies in the Fading Dream seem to be good, except possibly Tira and the Lord of the Spire of Emerald Lights. Not even these embody it. They care, strongly, about their own people, but are not champions of freedom and goodness as the members of the 3.5 Court of Stars were.

Correct. 3.5 Eladrin are a form of alignment-based celestial, just as demons and devils are alignment-based fiends. In 4E / Eberron there is nothing inherently "good" about eladrin.

So can I this solve this by claiming that are the "freedom-fighter" Eladrin of 3.5 simply a prominent group in one of Thelanis' realms, but not, as hitherto thought, the only one - leading the planar scholars to reach the wrong conclusions until the feyspires appeared? And strip the "good" subtype from the others?

It's what I'd do. One of the basic principles of Eberron is to change the things you don't like, after all. 

That's another great idea. At the risk of derailing my own thread (though it will be worth it): I assume the new Overlord would be free, untrapped by the Silver Flame?

That would certainly be the theory. 

Are rakshasa and prakhuthu able to feel personal loyalty to their Overlord (rather than its portfolio or simply basking in its power), and seek to work with the good guys to prevent one of their numbers from essentially eradicating their lord and usurping his place?

Absolutely! I'd argue that the majority of the rakshasa are very loyal to their Overlords; again, they aren't simply humans with magical powers, but rather incarnate spirits devoted to a concept. Those who actually turn on their Overlords would be rare. Of course, some would be more loyal than others; Mordakhesh takes loyalty and discipline very seriously, while the servants of the Oathbreaker are inherently more likely to pursue their own schemes.

And the Lords of Dust are quite capable of working with the good guys any time it suits their purposes, even if those purposes hurt other Lords of Dust.

And what would happen to the immortal overlord?

if you mean the original once its power is usurped, it might be eliminated - its energy isn't destroyed, simply repurposed. However, I'd be likely to have the two switch roles... so the former Overlord would become a lowly rakshasa, surely desperate for vengeance and the opportunity to regain its power. And I'll note that this reduction in power would also serve to free it from the Silver Flame; the principle of the Silver Flame is that it's a fishing net, and the little spirits slip through the gaps. 

Heck, if you want an interesting scenario, perhaps Bel Shalor wasn't RELEASED in the past; instead, Bel Shalor was a lesser spirit who stole the power of the Overlord and was then bound by Tira. Which means that the Overlord whose power was stolen is out there actively scheming now.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Syltorian:

It's what I'd do. One of the basic principles of Eberron is to change the things you don't like, after all. 

Yes! And even better, it makes it possible to have several things be possible at the same time, considering no gods are going to get down from their holy mountain to put you right and incidentally, ask you to return the fire your ancestors stole. I really liked the fallen eladrin (3.5 style ghaele, I believe) playwright in Sharn: City of Towers, and her story mostly relies on her being born into a good, if 'see-no-evil' mentality; whereas their use as creatures ranging from good to evil and largely amoral and whimsical plays very much into the stories that made the fey so fearsome in real life cultures.  

Absolutely! I'd argue that the majority of the rakshasa are very loyal to their Overlords; again, they aren't simply humans with magical powers, but rather incarnate spirits devoted to a concept. Those who actually turn on their Overlords would be rare. Of course, some would be more loyal than others; Mordakhesh takes loyalty and discipline veyr seriously, while the servants of the Oathbreaker are inherently more likely to pursue their own schemes.

Would it be possible for a rakshasa to try and steal a rival overlord's power - I believe it was already mentioned that Rak Thulkesh and Sakinnirot (not sure on the spellings...) don't like each other; or would the difference in portfolios make this too tricky?

Also, could a mortal do this? We know that some, like the founder of the Korranberg Library, aspired to godhood, and that the dragons believe they can ascend too. Mechanically, it is also possible (in 3.5) to become an outsider through some spells or prestige classes, and I recently rediscovered one in the Dragon Magazines which does so by serving the rakshasa (though their main class-feature is becoming an arrow-magnet to protect their masters). Naturally, survival chances once the Lords of Dust and the Eyes of Chronepsis find out about this would be rather slim.

if you mean the original once its power is usurped, it might be eliminated - its energy isn't destroyed, simply repurposed. However, I'd be likely to have the two switch roles... so the former Overlord would become a lowly rakshasa, surely desperate for vengeance and the opportunity to regain its power. And I'll note that this reduction in power would also serve to free it from the Silver Flame; the principle of the Silver Flame is that it's a fishing net, and the little spirits slip through the gaps.

Heck, if you want an interesting scenario, perhaps Bel Shalor wasn't RELEASED in the past; instead, Bel Shalor was a lesser spirit who stole the power of the Overlord and was then bound by Tira. Which means that the Overlord whose power was stolen is out there actively scheming now.

The idea of switching roles, especially of it having already occurred with Bel Shalor is great! There are some interesting possibilities... perhaps the Shadow in the Flame orchestrated this. If it could escape by passing over just enough power to slip through the net and letting the proxy be imprisoned in the flame, it would be free, at a price, certainly, but free. Naturally, the real Bel Shalor would need some kind of guarantee to regain all of its power.