Fighter Math (high level campaigns)

[Endur]

High level campaigns give rise to Fighter Math.

Fighter Math is where a high level fighter character has all sorts of bonuses that stack in certain situations.

It gets to the point where a high level fighter may actually be more complex to run than a high level spellcaster.

The high level spellcaster's complexity comes in from having to choose a spell, and then understand what the spell does.

But the high level fighter has to know which bonuses apply in which situations, which ones stack, and which ones don't stack.

When your high level fighter is adventuring with half a dozen other high level characters, there may be a range of "buff" spells that affect him, both individual buff spells and area affect spells.

From a stacking point of view, all the wizard needs to keep track of are "buffs" that impact his DCs. i.e. Spell Focus, certain PRCs, and the buffs that increase his primary spell casting stat.

Its not uncommon for my 10th level fighter type PC to have seven or more buff spells affecting him at once. Then add in all the racial bonuses, class bonuses, magic item bonuses, and feat bonuses. The end result is a lot of numbers to add up.

This is a somewhat different situation from AD&D. In AD&D, most of these temporary buff spells didn't exist. The Strength spell didn't help a character once your strength was 18/00 or higher. There were still some buff spells, but not as many as there are now. A buff spell on int or wisdom didn't increase a spell's DC. Most spells just required the target to make a generic saving throw vs. spells (or whatever).

Fighter math is something I think needs to be addressed in D&D 4e, if high level campaigns are going to be viable without being exercises in accounting.

Tom

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I disagree, I don't find it that difficult to remember or work out.

After all, on my character sheet I write down my 'normal' attack bonus, say +16/+11 to take a random example.

On a spare piece of paper, each session, I write down any changes to this and any spells cast upon me. So if I get a bulls strength I just write down Str = 22, atk +18/+13 and change the damage. The main sheet remains clear and easy, but the 'running total' sheet becomes messy quickly. Of course, this doesn't always work perfectly (I often forget about bless effects, for example) but it works well enough.

Now when you're a cleric and you're casting divine favour, righteous might, bull's strength, divine power, shield of faith, endurance, owl's wisdom, magic vestment, greater magic weapon and whatever your local wizard can come up with, and you've got to keep track of durations as well, then you've got a problem

 

[hong]

I generally play fighter types, and I can't remember the last time I had more than 3-4 buff spells on me. Most of the buffs that fighters get should be from items, eg stat boost items, magic weapons and armour, rings of protection, etc. These are the sorts of things you can precalculate and write them on your character sheet.

 

[Endur]

Well, we play in a cooperative, team oriented environment.

And the cleric realized very early on that a buffed cleric may be a match for a fighter, but a buffed fighter was far more powerful than even the big boss bad guy in many adventures.

So, we have both the cleric and the wizard using their buff spells on the fighter type.

So what the fighter has in magic items, is very minor compared to the massive bonuses the fighter gets from the spells. (And nearly all of the magic items stack with spells, too. i.e. a +1 weapon with special abilities gets a GMW +4 added on it. So all of a sudden its a +4 weapon with a special ability. The same for armor. And Keen Edge can be added on.

Bulls Strength, Bears Heart, Haste, Shield of Faith, etc.

Tom

 

[Magius del Cotto]

What I do:

Just right down the different variables that could affect the character and what the net effect is for each, then, if you need to, just use a counter to mark what's going on with the character. Maybe multiple counters to mark durations and such, if you need them. Of course, I've only had to deal with that with my +4 bane(chaotic), bane (evil), holy, lawful, flaming, acidic, elemental rapier (and in case you're wondering: yes, I did roll that up legally, at least by the DM's understanding of the game at the time...). Grand total of 8 different combinations of damage potentials/attack bonuses.
Of course, this was already an... abnormally powerful character (soloed a monster that had a CR higher than his given level before getting the weapon) who was only played the once, so...
Magius out.

 

[Berk]

"Fighter math" is easy.

"Cleric math" is hard.

And the cleric realized very early on that a buffed cleric may be a match for a fighter, but a buffed fighter was far more powerful than even the big boss bad guy in many adventures.

Just a personal observation. A buffed cleric can whoop a buffed fighter.

 

[Angcuru]

maybe 'cause clerics can learn this little spell I like to call 'SLAY LIVING.'

 

[Endur]

Well, if you think a buffed cleric is tougher than a buffed fighter, you must be playing a different game.

In the game we play, every spell that a buffed cleric can have, can also be given to a buffed fighter. Therefore, the extra feats, hp, BAB, higher str of the fighter means that the buffed fighter is more dangerous than the buffed cleric.

The way we get around the caster-only restrictions on persistent divine favor, etc. is to put those spells in a spell storing device, such as an ioun stone or a ring of spell storing or a potion.

"Fighter math" is easy.

"Cleric math" is hard.



Just a personal observation. A buffed cleric can whoop a buffed fighter.

 

[Catulle]

Plus the fighter-type's feat options, combat mode selections...

My most 'combat intense' character has the option of rage, 2 weapon style, sword/buckler or sword in two hands (the precise variation often changes once actually in combat) plus the power attack thing. Good so far. Then add in the four casters in the group with buff options (different buff options, mind - we're all 'a bit' multiclassed) and it starts to get hairy.

Scrap paper irons out most of the kinks, however. I just need to get better at remembering those durations (which, I might add, is something the spellcasters have to do as well).

Which, I suppose is a way of saying that (IMHO) high-level (or even mid-to-high; my guy's 11th) play gets maths-y whatever you play. It's part and parcel of the d20 system, for better or worse.

Regards,

Barry

 

[Liminal Syzygy]

Not to mention "Power Attack" math trying to guestimate your enemy's AC based on what you know about the creature, and "hit" datapoints to set your power attack optimally for highest average damage.