D&D 5E Fighters are amazing!

[Queer Venger]

I completely agree with all the points made by the OP, yet why at my table does everyone want to play a magic user?? I think the figthers need better PR, they certainly are a great class.

 

[Imaro]

Yay!! [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] finally arrived to show us all the errors of our ways in liking the 5e fighter because 5e isn't 4e...

 

[I'm A Banana]

[MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] ; [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]

Cut it out.

 

[Imaro]

To get back on subject... From what I've seen of the 5e fighter in actual play it is, as the OP presented, a well designed class but even more importantly a fun class to play (I have a battlemaster who just hit 4th level in my current campaign) and even without a ton of real world tactical acumen (the player is my 12 year old nephew) he's having a great time playing the 5e fighter.

On another note I was thinking that the Remarkable Athlete feature gets downplayed but is actually pretty good and, with bounded accuracy, can allow the 5e fighter to back up the Rogue on scouting missions or even sub in as a Rogue light (Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand all at half prof rounded up) if he has a decent to good Dexterity (which he probably should). Or am I missing something here?

 

[Sacrosanct]

I completely agree with all the points made by the OP, yet why at my table does everyone want to play a magic user?? I think the figthers need better PR, they certainly are a great class.

I don't think it's a PR thing, I just think maybe people want to play a magic user because it appeals the best to them, not that any class is better than another. For example, I don't really like playing magic users but that doesn't mean I think magic users are somehow inferior or worse or more boring than other classes. That's probably one of the biggest errors I see people make in discussions like this (not that I'm saying you are, but in general). People seem to think X class is worse, boring, ineffective, etc just because their personal preference is one way, without realizing that a lot of other people have different preferences. The fighter is boring argument is one of the most common examples of this.

 

[koga305]

Indeed, let's.

Aw yes, a FIGHT! Just what I was hoping for - a chance to demonstrate the fighter's superiority in combat .*

In short your skills are mediocre. They are simply average other than that you have access to Perception (Athletics is not by any means one of the all-time best exploration skills when common spells make it near-irrelevant because you can levitate or fly). Your AC is a couple of points higher than most people - and with Bounded Accuracy that doesn't shut monsters out.

And, for the record, the most important save isn't Con but Will.

Well, Fighters aren't a skill-based class. I don't expect them to have the best skills, but some of them are generally quite good. And personally, I don't think Athletics is outclassed by levitate or fly because at most levels, the mage in your party will really want those slots for other things. Sure, maybe the Wizard is able to cast levitate, but in practice they'll appreciate saving the slot for a mirror image next combat or to cast invisibility on the Rogue. Plus, many of those spells require Concentration which Athletics doesn't, relevant in situations where you might be taking damage. I've found that being able to climb, swim, or jump - in short, covering difficult terrain - comes up a lot in my games in terms of exploration, although yours may be different.
On the contrary, those few points of AC can make all the difference in a bounded accuracy system. It means a decrease in damage taken over the course of an entire day, which makes a big difference in your resilience. When fighting creatures with +4 to hit (happens surprisingly often), a 20 AC (plate and shield) nearly halves your chance to be hit compared to 16 (Studded Leather + 4 from Dex). That's a big deal if you're getting swarmed by low-level monsters!
Is Will the most important save? I'm not sure - at the very least it's up for debate. Certainly plenty of nasty effects are based on both. And if your Fighter goes EK or multiclasses caster, it'll be the best by a mile as Concentration is super important.

This only applies to Schrodinger's Fighter. There is no actual fighter anywhere who has access to every fighting style. If you have TWF you don't have armour mastery.

This is true. You've got me there - I merely meant to say the Fighter has lots of build options.

Second Wind has precisely one problem. It doesn't scale. It's great at level 1 (better than Action Surge) - but it's little improved by level 20. At level 1 it heals around half your hit points. By level 3 it's around a third.

Agreed with you there. Still, in practice much of the game is played at low levels.

Indeed. Action Surge is another front loaded ability. It's a great ability. And you have it at level 1.

Level two!

In practice it means you are front loaded again. By level 8 you have two stat increases and a combat feat from memory. At level 8, Strength 20 and Great Weapon Fighting rocks. But your next stat increase? Is something that wasn't good enough to take at levels 4, 6, or 8. (The Battlemaster suffers the same way when they get extra maneuvers. The only extra maneuvers they can take are ones that weren't good enough for them at level 3).

This is true. Basic economic theory says the value of additional picks from a limited set of options diminishes as you select the best ones first. However, there are still quite a few good picks that the Fighter can afford that other classes can't. Resilient (Wisdom) shores up your weak save, Sentinel makes you a stellar defender and boosts damage, Shield Master boosts your defenses and gives you a great bonus action ability, Mage Slayer makes you awesome at fighting casters, and even the humble Constitution increase has great value. And unlike other classes, you can actually afford to take several of these option because you've already picked up the ones your build needs early on.

This is, however, diminishing returns. Your first extra attack doubles your (non-TWF) damage output. Your second only adds 50%. And from memory everyone gets something neat at level 11.

Well, yes. If each Extra Attack actually doubled your number of attacks, the Fighter would make every non-Fighter martial class start feeling useless in combat around level 11, barring similar buffs for them. Class balance is a thing. It's still a really awesome bonus, even taking into account that other classes get cool abilities at level 11 (well, mostly; the Open Hand Monk's 1/day sanctuary doesn't really compete ).

Limited uses per day. The fighter's ability here is like having an extremely limited use extra inspiration point.

It does stack with Inspiration for those really, really important saves. And while it won't help all of your saving throws, it'll help the ones that really count. Admittedly, Relentless isn't the Fighter's strongest ability but it is far from useless.

Which does approximately jack to deal with the underpowered complaints. The newbie class if anything should be overpowered to make up for their lack of skill.

Not sure if I agree with you here. First of all, from what I've read the Champion's somewhat lower damage isn't noticeable in play.
Second, in terms of theory, the class for skilled ought to have a lower floor but a higher ceiling. If it wasn't more powerful when played at its best, those that enjoy playing and optimizing complex Fighters would be annoyed because they felt like their skill wasn't rewarded. In my opinion, the design here is just about right.

In short something you don't control, can't rely on, and that barely shifts your DPR. W00t!

It's fun for new players because they get the occasional cool bonus without having to learn an entirely new subsystem. And given the strength of the Fighter class in general, the small difference in DPR in play is somewhat inconsequential. Chances are this subclass was not designed for you (and to be honest, me), but I feel sure that some people out there are very happy playing it.

It might even be the single strongest sub-class at level 3. Might. Unfortunately level 3 is when you get to pick all your best abilities. When they get extra maneuvers you simply get to choose ones that weren't good enough for you at level 3. This is a problem. And Know Your Enemy takes a minute to use, meaning that you can find out the combat stats of people you interact with socially.

Your point is taken but that doesn't invalidate the ability - versatility is important, especially at higher levels. Also, all your maneuvers get stronger as you level up so there is a reward for continuing to advance in the subclass. Finally, gaining Extra Attacks means that you can pull off "combos" that you couldn't before (trip, then menace, then push) - so the ability does subtly scale with level even when it's not obvious.
Also, you mean you don't want to find out the combat stats of people you interact with socially? "Hey, DM. That sinister-looking merchant and all of his guards. Could we take them?"

Yup. They want to be a bard.

Can Bards summon their weapon from anywhere on the plane? Can they make six attacks in a single round? Can they stand in the way of a Beholder's death ray and say "please, sir, may I have another?"

A 4e-style Defender is doable if and only if you want a bargain basement version. The 1 reaction/round rather cripples it.

Things in 4E aren't going to resemble things in 5E perfectly, but with the Sentinel feat a Fighter can do a perfectly good job of protecting his or her team. It's true that the 5E Fighter can't stop all of a large crowd of monsters at once but often another party member can pick up the slack, particularly if you can find a chokepoint to hold together.

Yup. It's more like linear wizard logarithmic fighter. And there are quite a lot of spells (Animate Dead, True Polymorph) that shatter the game.

I'll buy your logic on True Polymorph, but not Animate Dead. When you've dumped all your spell slots on a skeleton archer army (with huge logistics issues, I might add) and the enemy mage with Fireball wipes them out with just one spell, you've lost out. It's a high risk high reward maneuver, but I wouldn't call it gamebreaking.

You seem to think a Short Rest takes five minutes rather than an hour. And be working on the basis of three short rests per day rather than a single lunch break.

The 5E game system also works on the basis of three short rests per day (well, two and a long rest which also recharges short rest-dependent abilities). And while it's not easy to logistically pull off in some adventure settings, in others (static dungeon, city) the party can often count on a short rest after every fight.

In short they have all the out of combat utility of a 3.X fighter. Athletics is not a strong skill. (Perception is, of course).

Them's (if you'll excuse me) fighting words! I heartily disagree, given that 3.X DCs scaled with level while 5E DCs do not. The 5E Fighter also has a broader variety of viable class skills and as many skills as any other non-skill based class, while the 3.X Fighter was often shorted skill points due to low Intelligence.
I've already stated my opinion on Athletics, but as above I think it's pretty good.

The fighter is, of course, about as good at social skills as the wizard is at athletics. You are undermining your own points here.

A Fighter trained in social skills is about as good as a Wizard trained in Athletics (which is more rare because more backgrounds grant social skills) - that is, not too bad. Given that lots and lots of DCs in the system are 10, a +2 or +3 bonus isn't actually terrible, and background features can often make you pretty good in the right situation (pulling your rank in the city guard or as a lower-level noble works wonders). In short, the math of 5E allows a Fighter to contribute in social encounters effectively where this was often not true in previous editions.

Assuming that there's no actual rogues in the party. I've done better with a 4e high dex fighter pretending to be a rogue (six trained skills at first level).

Of course the Rogue is the best at skills, but lots of 5E Fighters could effectively accompany the Rogue on scouting missions (not a bad backup in case of discovery). This wasn't necessarily true in 4E or any other edition. Also, how did you get six trained skills at first level in 4E?

The Warlock?

The Warlock is pretty cool, yes. But I was referring to the Fighter.

As you suggest.

Basically the fighter doesn't scale. Low level Second Wind, Action Surge, and Combat Superiority are all awesome abilities (especially Combat Superiority: Riposte). From first to sixth level or so the fighter is probably the biggest badass in the game. They remain pretty good to level 11 - but really suffer in the back 10. Second Wind is less and less useful. Action Surge is no more useful. You already have your best combat maneuvers as a Battlemaster. Your feats are strongly in the realm of diminishing returns after level 8. And other than the Champion's regeneration there's nothing actually new you can do in the back half of the game.

If they'd capped the fighter at level 10 or given it a Paragon Path system in which they chose "Charles Atlas Superpowers", "Leader of Men", or "Supernatural Warrior" I'd consider it a pretty good class. As a three level dip (Battlemaster) it's great - and levels 4-6 are also good (two ability score increases and a second attack). But after that the fighter almost stops.

Okay, so several counterpoints to your points. First, just about every class gains fewer new abilities after level 11 - witness the Warlock's four new spells as an extreme example, but even other full spellcasters will find themselves falling back on level fours and fives as they don't get tons of new abilities, and other martials like the Rogue and Ranger mostly get smaller bennies like blindsense and improvements on their existing abilities. Second, those feats you wrote off as "diminishing returns" actually are new abilities - and pretty good ones, too! Things like Alert, Lucky, Mage Slayer, and Sentinel represent new abilities that most classes can't afford to take because they're still maxing out their key ability scores.
Although I can't claim to have played it at high level, I suspect that the Fighter's abilities remain interesting, relevant, powerful, and fresh even late in the game. Can Fighters compete with high-level casters for versatility? No, but the casters can't compete with them for damage output (barring AoEs) and resilience. I maintain that the Fighter class is well-designed, fun to play, and a solid addition to an adventuring party at any level.

Thanks, however, for the in-depth critique. It's an interesting discussion!


*Please note the use of excessive hyperbole in my writing style in this thread. I do actually think that other classes in 5E have significant strengths and the Fighter has significant weaknesses; talking this way is just more fun.

 

[I'm A Banana]

On another note I was thinking that the Remarkable Athlete feature gets downplayed but is actually pretty good and, with bounded accuracy, can allow the 5e fighter to back up the Rogue on scouting missions or even sub in as a Rogue light (Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand all at half prof rounded up) if he has a decent to good Dexterity (which he probably should). Or am I missing something here?

I think it's one of the things intended to support the fighter in the Exploration pillar. It's OK at that -- really, the big issue there is that heavy armor makes exploration tough, but fighters like to wear heavy armor, so....it's a tough needle to thread. It's really solid for a Bow-fighter who goes more lightly armored, but the dwarftank who sleeps in his tin can armor isn't going to get as much mileage out of it unless your playstyle emphasizes the "realism" of sometimes not being in elaborate heavy armor.

 

[Sacrosanct]

To get back on subject... From what I've seen of the 5e fighter in actual play it is, as the OP presented, a well designed class but even more importantly a fun class to play (I have a battlemaster who just hit 4th level in my current campaign) and even without a ton of real world tactical acumen (the player is my 12 year old nephew) he's having a great time playing the 5e fighter.

On another note I was thinking that the Remarkable Athlete feature gets downplayed but is actually pretty good and, with bounded accuracy, can allow the 5e fighter to back up the Rogue on scouting missions or even sub in as a Rogue light (Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand all at half prof rounded up) if he has a decent to good Dexterity (which he probably should). Or am I missing something here?

I actually prefer the Champion fighter because I don't have to worry about any sort of resource management (not that it's terribly difficult to handle with BM ). But I will admit that I have enjoyed my BM fighter as well.

As you mention, I sort of view the champion fighter as sort of a martial bard of sorts, with remarkable athlete. And survivor looks like a really great ability. It pretty much guarantees you're at 1/2 hp at the start of every battle, no matter how many encounters you may have. So while the cleric or bard is out of healing spells, you keep going. It's basically a 9 or 10 HP regeneration per round? Awesomesauce. Not to mention 3x as many critical hits as any other fighter. Every other class only gets 2 attacks and only crits on a 20, so that's what? roughly a 10% chance per round? Champion fighter with 3 attacks at 18 or higher is roughly 45% chance per round?

 

[Imaro]

I don't think it's a PR thing, I just think maybe people want to play a magic user because it appeals the best to them, not that any class is better than another. For example, I don't really like playing magic users but that doesn't mean I think magic users are somehow inferior or worse or more boring than other classes. That's probably one of the biggest errors I see people make in discussions like this (not that I'm saying you are, but in general). People seem to think X class is worse, boring, ineffective, etc just because their personal preference is one way, without realizing that a lot of other people have different preferences. The fighter is boring argument is one of the most common examples of this.

I agree with this, I always enjoy playing gishes in every edition of D&D, not because I think they are superior to other classes but because, as a child, my first exposure to fantasy fiction were reprints of the Elric stories (the archetypical gish), identifying more with Gray Mouser then Fafhrd (admittedly a gish who is very low on the magic spectrum but has a few tricks) and even Gandalf (with Glamdring) was more D&D gish than full out wizard at least IMO. So I really think it has more to do with what personally inspires you or you relate to. What I do like about 5e is that there are numerous classes in the PHB that allow me to play a gish without multi-classing or feat expenditures.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I agree with this, I always enjoy playing gishes in every edition of D&D, not because I think they are superior to other classes but because, as a child, my first exposure to fantasy fiction were reprints of the Elric stories (the archetypical gish), identifying more with Gray Mouser then Fafhrd (admittedly a gish who is very low on the magic spectrum but has a few tricks) and even Gandalf (with Glamdring) was more D&D gish than full out wizard at least IMO. So I really think it has more to do with what personally inspires you or you relate to. What I do like about 5e is that there are numerous classes in the PHB that allow me to play a gish without multi-classing or feat expenditures.

Agreed on both points. I think you really hit the nail on the head with the first one. For example, one of my biggest inspirations and all time favorite movies was Excalibur. Instantly wanted to play a fighter as one of those knights.

And also like you, I am VERY pleased that 5e allows the level of customization without actually multi-classing. Another favorite class of mine is the rogue archetype, and one of my all time favorite 5e PCs so far is another one of my halfling fighters, but with the urchin background. He's basically a 1e fighter/thief, but without having to spend a level on thief. It's great when people assume he's a squishy thief after I've snuck into somewhere only to be surprised when I action surge and let loose 5 attacks in one round