Fighter's Mark makes DM combat less fun

[eamon]

Frankly, I don't think you as DM really need to do much worrying or thinking out of the box, normally (not that these aren't fun sometimes!).

The fighter gets to use his immediate action only once a round, and using it to attack a marked target that shifts away does not stop the shift!

In other words, a marked creature should try to attack the fighter if reasonable, but it's not a big issue to take one basic attack from most fighters, so the monsters aren't overly hampered, strategically.

 

[Mouseferatu]

That Combat Superiority attack against marked foes that are shifting is an interrupt that can be used once per turn. But.. each provoking creature counts as a new turn, so each would in turn provoke an attack on themselves on their turn as soon as they shift.

Nope. Look up "immediate actions." Other than opportunity attacks, you get one immediate action per round, not per turn.

 

[DracoSuave]

Some replies have suggested that the fighter can only attack one opponent/kobold per turn, thus allowing the others free reign to move away. That is not correct, as someone pointed out.

That Combat Superiority attack against marked foes that are shifting is an interrupt that can be used once per turn. But.. each provoking creature counts as a new turn, so each would in turn provoke an attack on themselves on their turn as soon as they shift.

First, you're confusing Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority.

Combat Superiority is a bonus to opportunity attacks. It adds +WisMod to the OA, and if the target was moving, they stop moving. That has NOTHING to do with Combat Challenge.

Combat Challenge does two things. One: If the fighter's attacked an enemy, the fighter can mark that enemy. Two: It allows a Fighter, as an immediate interrupt (one per combat round only) to use a melee basic attack against an enemy that

a) He's marked.
b) That is shifting or attacking an ally.
c) Is in weapon range.

In order for all eight kobolds to even be -elegible- for Combat Challenge-granted attacks, they'd all have to have been attacked by the fighter already that round. And, because Combat Challenge is an Immediate Interrupt, the fighter can only use it against one.

 

[inati]

I think you are still confusing the Combat Challenge and the Combat Superiority class features.

For the sake of clarity, let's get the relevant rules up here in the post (bolds added by me):

Combat Challenge
In combat, it’s dangerous to ignore a fighter. Every
time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or
misses, you can choose to mark that target. The mark
lasts until the end of your next turn. While a target
is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any
attack that doesn’t include you as a target. A creature
can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark
supersedes a mark that was already in place.
In addition, whenever a marked enemy that is
adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not
include you, you can make a melee basic attack against
that enemy as an immediate interrupt. PHB pg76

Combat Superiority
You gain a bonus to opportunity attacks equal to your
Wisdom modifier. An enemy struck by your opportunity
attack stops moving, if a move provoked the
attack. If it still has actions remaining, it can use them
to resume moving. PHB pg76

IMMEDIATE ACTION
✦ Trigger: Each immediate action—usually a
power—defines its specific trigger. The one type of
immediate action that every combatant can take is a
readied action (see “Ready an Action,” page 291).
✦ Once per Round: You can take only one immediate
action per round, either an immediate interrupt
or an immediate reaction. If you haven’t taken an
immediate action since the end of your last turn, you
can take one when a trigger allows you to. You can’t
take an immediate action on your own turn.
✦ Interrupt: An immediate interrupt lets you jump
in when a certain trigger condition arises, acting
before the trigger resolves. If an interrupt invalidates
a triggering action, that action is lost. For example,
an enemy makes a melee attack against you, but you
use a power that lets you shift away as an immediate
interrupt. If your enemy can no longer reach you, the
enemy’s attack action is lost. PHB pg268

OPPORTUNITY ACTION
✦ Trigger: Opportunity actions allow you to take an
action in response to an enemy letting its guard
down. The one type of opportunity action that every
combatant can take is an opportunity attack (page
290). Opportunity attacks are triggered by an enemy
leaving a square adjacent to you or by an adjacent
enemy making a ranged attack or an area attack.
✦ Once per Combatant’s Turn: You can take no
more than one opportunity action on each other
combatant’s turn. You can’t take an opportunity
action on your own turn. PHB pg268

In your scenario, the Kobolds are all marked, and they shift. This activates Combat Challenge (ref above). Since Combat Challenge is an immediate interrupt (also above) it is limited to only once per round, as per the rules, so he would get to smack only one creature, even if they all shifted.

Now if the kobolds had all moved, this would draw an Opportunity Attack, which is once per Combatant's turn. So as each kobold moves, it would be hit by an Opportunity Attack, which activates Combat Superiority.

So, at most, with all 8 kobolds marked and surrounding him, the theoretical maximum would be 9 attacks by the fighter, not 16. Even if the fighter nailed a moving kobold, the kobold could just use another move action and keep moving, as per RAW of Combat Superiority, so although a fighter is sticky, he's not the permanent boat anchor you are imagining him out to be

I hope this clears things up!

 

[MarkB]

It's worth emphasising that the Fighter can only mark targets he's attacked, and the mark expires at the end of his next turn, and that most of the Fighter's attacks are against single foes. So he'll generally only have one or two targets marked at one time.

Additionally, if an opponent is marked by the fighter and wishes to attack another target without reprisal, there is a simple method of doing so: Ready an action to attack that target as soon as the fighter takes any action other than an opportunity attack.

A readied action with that trigger will take place during the fighter's turn, which means he will be unable to take any opportunity action or immediate action in response to it. All the opponent has to worry about is his -2 penalty to attack. And since his initiative resets to just before the fighter's, he can do the same again next round.

A somewhat abusive exploit, but not entirely unjustifiable in-game - the opponent is choosing to wait to make his move until the fighter is too preoccupied with his own actions to counter it.

 

[Bagpuss]

Any other DM's feel that the Fighters Marking ability takes some of the fun out of running monsters in combat?

Not me, it's a Fighter doing his job.

For example: If I have a bunch of shifty Kobolds, suddenly marked by the fighter, they are now essentially rooted to the ground and forced into a static toe-to-toe hackfest with the fighter. Sure, they can take the opportunity attack to move, but oh no, the fighter can stop them as an interrupt with his challenge.

Perhaps because you are playing it wrong. Against a lone shift kobold a fighter is great, against a bunch he's in trouble.

While he can mark them all (eventually) the Combat Challenge is an immediate interrupt action, and hence the Fighter can do it only once a round.

The first kobold, that shifts past him gets attacked as part of his Combat Challenge (and can continue past him, because this isn't his Combat Superiority ability) the second or third can't be attacked even though they are marked because he's used his immediate action for that round.

If all the creatures tried to move past him then he's fine because he can use an Opportunity Action with his Combat Superiority once per creatures turn.

 

[Nebulous]

I

I hope this clears things up!

Yes, it's good to see everything laid out like that. I'm sure our fighter (and myself too) have made some mistakes. The powers do sound a little similar at first glance.

 

[Cadfan]

The PCs are supposed to win.

 

[-Avalon-]

I found a good deal of fun using the fighter's challenge and superiority against the group:

Group of goblins, including (but not limited to) a goblin underboss and a goblin hexer...

Gobbies move in, fighter misses a few who then get to shift (and he whacks at one again due to challenge) misses the one, so he shifts 3 total and makes a basic attack (due to hexer's ability)...

Then the underboss gets in tight with the fighter, shifting around him on purpose to draw attacks, which if missed allow him and 2 others to shift, one of which gets to shift 3 and attack because of hexer...

End up having tons of movement all over board, and lots of attacks off-turn due to people missing different goblins =)

 

[Bold or Stupid]

I found a good deal of fun using the fighter's challenge and superiority against the group:

Group of goblins, including (but not limited to) a goblin underboss and a goblin hexer...

Gobbies move in, fighter misses a few who then get to shift (and he whacks at one again due to challenge) misses the one, so he shifts 3 total and makes a basic attack (due to hexer's ability)...

Then the underboss gets in tight with the fighter, shifting around him on purpose to draw attacks, which if missed allow him and 2 others to shift, one of which gets to shift 3 and attack because of hexer...

End up having tons of movement all over board, and lots of attacks off-turn due to people missing different goblins =)

Sorry to be a kill joy but a lot of that sort of trickery would be illegal as you can't use immediate actions on your own turn, since all those tricks need someone to do this they can't happen. Sorry about that.