Fighters -must- wear heavy armor

[Brother MacLaren]

Did the Scots fight by running forwards 15 feet, swinging their claymore, then running sideways 15 feet, before repeating the process?

I'd give a lightly armored fighter a greatsword and think it worked thematically because I can envision several historical and legendary archetypes that resemble that. Light armor and greatswords aren't incompatible.
I'd then give my lightly armored fighter Spring Attack because it's useful and fun.

I'd envision my character moving quickly. Move up, hack at the giant, then move out of his reach before he can react.

You use your phrases of "illogically bouncy" and "bunny hopping" and "running sideways," you make ANY character sound utterly moronic for using this feat, greatsword or no. I guess Spring Attack was a horrible name for a feat, since it made some readers think that the PCs are literally bouncing about.

 

[TwinBahamut]

On the swashing of bucklers...

In classical staging of the fights scenes of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, there are two types of combatant. First, there are the common men of the two households, such as the louts who get into a street brawl at the beginning of the play. These guys would carry bucklers, and use cutting swords (a line used by the fighters to each other is "remember thy swashing blow" as a reference to cutting slices). Meanwhile, the nobles would all fight with either just rapiers, or maybe a rapier and a main gauche, and use a totally different style.

As such, the Shakespearian swashbucklers, as in the people who used bucklers and swashed, were not the rapier fighters, they were the common grunts. Thus, using the name to indicate that swashbucklers under the modern sense (which includes rapier-users like Romeo) should carry bucklers is not necessarily logical.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Its different fighting styles. I don't think you're going to get very far by arguing that Inigo Montoya is a stupid character because he didn't wield a gauch, or that Zorro shouldn't be supported by D&D, or that the Three Musketeers aren't "in genre" for this game.

Pfah. Inigo Montoya use a gauch? That's the thing about being a level-12 PC in a world of mooks. You can take the sub-optimal route and do just fine (until you run into the level-13 PC). You can even duel people left-handed if you want.
I do recall Zorro using two swords in one of the recent movies.

Now, in terms of actual benefits to NOT using a gauch or buckler, you do present a narrower profile if only using one arm and facing your opponent side-on. The 2E Single-Weapon Style Specialization would seem to be a good rule here (+1 AC, or +2 if you double-specialize in the style).

 

[ruleslawyer]

Light armor has been the issue here, not "Dex-based." Dex comes into it because if you are wearing light armor you want a higher Dex for AC (and it's useful for gaining more AOOs with Combat Reflexes, and retaining access to Spring Attack when Enlarged). Light armor is useful for the higher movement rate. In the 3.5 games I've played and run, a high base movement rate is essential.

By the time you're at the level where you get Spring Attack in 3e, you can also afford mithril armor. That changes the definition of "light" substantially. You really aren't going to be wearing anything lighter than a mithril breastplate... and there's no need to. No impact on base speed, and no impact on Dexterity unless it's higher than 20... which was my point regarding Dex: Namely, that neither Dex nor Spring Attack are a way to even the odds between light and heavy armor when it comes to fighters. My point was that D&D fighters are going to wear heavy armor in every edition.

(Also, gaining AoOs with Combat Reflexes has *nothing* to do with wearing armor. Please note that the RAW state that "Max Dex Bonus" means "the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows.")

 

[Brother MacLaren]

My point was that D&D fighters are going to wear heavy armor in every edition.

Okay, granted that mithral breastplate is the best armor for a Spring Attacking fighter. How is that heavy armor? It's technically light armor, it looks like medium armor, and it's just +1 AC better than a chain shirt (for an additional 4,000 gp). Given that a fighter can get Spring Attack by 4th level, that's a pretty big cost.

(Also, gaining AoOs with Combat Reflexes has *nothing* to do with wearing armor.)

You misunderstood what I said. Let me try to fix it.
You said that a spring-attacking polearm fighter only needed a 13 Dex.
I said that such a PC would want a higher Dex because he'd like to wear lighter armor (for the movement) and for the increased AOOs. The Dex gives the increased AOOs, not the lighter armor.

"Dex comes into it because if you are wearing light armor you want a higher Dex for AC (and it's the higher Dex is useful for gaining more AOOs with Combat Reflexes, and retaining access to Spring Attack when Enlarged). Light armor is useful for the higher movement rate. "

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

D&D should support this as a character archetype. Not doing so is failure. And no, trying to pawn off a rogue throat slitter or an illogically bouncy guy with a greatsword does not count.

Pretending that all sneak attack is backstab-style, "throat slitting" is silly. It can also represent feints (explicitly) and such. Besides, we don't know how it's going to work out in 4E; we don't know if rogues, as strikers, will require flankers or a separate feinting mechanic to work their damagelicious mojo.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I agree that movement rate is important for melee guys. 20 is too low. (Not that 30 is enough for fleeing as most monsters are faster. IMX you can't run until you get dimension door.) How about a level of barbarian and mithral full plate? That counts as medium armor so he can still spring attack, but with a move of 30. But now the SAer isn't exactly lightly armored, in fact he has the strongest armor in the game this side of adamantine.

 

[Incenjucar]

I'm hoping they give fighters the ability to shrug off armor-based impairment to some degree.

 

[Aage]

I'm hoping they give fighters the ability to shrug off armor-based impairment to some degree.

I don't have my book with me, but I think this is mentioned in Races and Classes...


I actually believe that the thing is that fighters aren't expected to have high dexterity, and thus heavy armour is the way to go... If that is the case, you could go with a light armour fighter, but perhaps you'd have to pick most of your powers from other classes (rogue; ranger) because you lack strength, which makes it inefficient to take fighter powers. Or you could take high str and dex, but then you'd probably lack another important fighter ability (Con?)

 

[Remathilis]

Here's my version of the math. I've actually included the chances to hit and to crit against typical enemy AC. And I've given everybody the same flanking buddy that the Spring-Attacking rogue has. Feel free to correct me on specifics here.

I had thought to go through and discuss, but I can sum it here.

Most of the people so far in this thread have equated "lightly armored" with "swashbuckler" and thus assumed a one-handed, dex-based fighter. Ergo, I made a fighter who didn't need str: his to hit came from feats and dex, his dmg from PA. You built a str fighter who only gets one attack per round in exchange for only getting hit once. Both are a viable option, but my argument (a dex-based fighter is subpar to a dex-based rogue) and yours (a str-based fighter with mobility is superior to a dex-based rogue) ended up being null: you've proven a fighter is a better fighter than a rogue unless he's sub-optimally built. And he's still doing less damage than the HA fighter. And in a world where there is no magical items, Spring Atk is a godsend, but in a world of +2 adamantine full plate, all bets are off.

Oh, and the LA tops his damage (PA+5) at 28, the rogue maxes out at 37. But thats the nature of comparing statistical pluses to random pluses. The rogue also probably invested in tumble (13 ranks, +3 dex, what AoO?) and can take opportunist (-2 str damage reduces the giant's to hit/dmg by -1/-1.5 per hit, which reduces his chances of getting hit and being killed, but I digress).