Finland to pay all its citizens 800 euros a month to fight unemployment

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It's not a claim. It's a fact.

It may be a fact that the companies need skilled workers. It's also a fact that it is their responsibility to ensure they get them and no one else's. And that they are failing to actually do the work they consider they are supposed to because they aren't fulfilling their responsibilities. They are just sucking up skilled workers from the environment, trying to externalise costs. And I'm shocked, shocked that this doesn't work indefinitely.

Why are you so determined to help companies shirk their responsibilities? Why do you think it isn't the responsibility of companies to train their workforce.

After all if we followed your methods then no company could ever work out a new way of doing things and implement it. You'd kill innovation - after all people don't come ready trained for new methods that were created at a company. They can't. Because it's new - and on the job training is at first the only method of training available.

And indeed by ensuring that instead of training people in the jobs that were needed people get trained before they start in methods that were appropriate a few years ago you are actively harming innovation. If training is a responsibility that companies palm off on the workers and the government then there is a huge competitive disadvantage to training. If you want to do something the old way you have a cheaper workforce even if the new way is better, all else being equal. This is because any innovation you make for your workforce means that you need to train all new workers even if they come trained to industry standards. Whereas doing things the standard way means that corporate subsidies give you a pre-trained workforce. Any innovation you make doesn't just have to be better. It has to be better by enough to justify a training budget. If the company takes responsibility for its own training rather than externalises it it just has to change the training it uses, making the marginal cost much much lower.

Your twisted corporate morality and attempt to pass off responsibility is something that discourages companies to innovate.

Are you seriously saying that the government should pay several times more to someone than it would cost to train him, in order to avoid training him? What sense does that make?

I'm saying that this is moving the goalposts. If we're interested merely in what has positive effects then giving cash handouts to people in poverty has huge positive impacts on the economy - it gets spent and circulated fast. It's right up there with infrastructure spending with training coming in third place.

So if we're going by pragmatic effects on spending then Finland's approach is highly effective and you should be in favour of it based on the effects everywhere it has been tried.

If we're arguing on points of principle and responsibilities then you're arguing for a bunch of scrounging leeches to duck out on their responsibility to actually do the job they claim to want to - and instead to suckle on the government teat. And it is far far more immoral to let companies do this than it is to let people do this to put food on the table.
 

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delericho

Legend
I'm saying that this is moving the goalposts. If we're interested merely in what has positive effects then giving cash handouts to people in poverty has huge positive impacts on the economy - it gets spent and circulated fast. It's right up there with infrastructure spending with training coming in third place.

Yep.

Indeed, one could consider whether society shouldn't do both - a universal income so that everyone has at least the basics required to live and low cost (or, better, free) training courses for those who want to try to better themselves. And so, those who are determined not to work can subsist without having to turn to crime while those who want to seek a better life have the tools to do so.
 

Yep.

Indeed, one could consider whether society shouldn't do both - a universal income so that everyone has at least the basics required to live and low cost (or, better, free) training courses for those who want to try to better themselves. And so, those who are determined not to work can subsist without having to turn to crime while those who want to seek a better life have the tools to do so.

I agree entirely here. That training from the government is a sensible way of doing things - as long as it isn't merely an excuse for corporate parasitism and something that's going to make innovation a lot less economical locally. But employers should not set things up so they rely on others to do their jobs for them.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It may be a fact that the companies need skilled workers. It's also a fact that it is their responsibility to ensure they get them and no one else's. And that they are failing to actually do the work they consider they are supposed to because they aren't fulfilling their responsibilities. They are just sucking up skilled workers from the environment, trying to externalise costs. And I'm shocked, shocked that this doesn't work indefinitely.

This has never been the case, and still isn't. It has never been the responsibility of the companies to put you (or anyone else) through college or trade school.

Why do you think it isn't the responsibility of companies to train their workforce.

Because post high school education is the responsibility of the person being educated and no one else.

After all if we followed your methods then no company could ever work out a new way of doing things and implement it. You'd kill innovation - after all people don't come ready trained for new methods that were created at a company. They can't. Because it's new - and on the job training is at first the only method of training available.

Companies can choose to train in this fashion, and some do. Notably the ones who do things differently than anyone else. However, even they don't go pick a homeless guy off of the street to teach their proprietary stuff. They pick someone who has been trained in their field and then add their proprietary information to that base skilled training. It's that base skilled training that they are not responsible for.

Your twisted corporate morality and attempt to pass off responsibility is something that discourages companies to innovate.

LOL Wow. You're..............out there.

I'm saying that this is moving the goalposts. If we're interested merely in what has positive effects then giving cash handouts to people in poverty has huge positive impacts on the economy - it gets spent and circulated fast. It's right up there with infrastructure spending with training coming in third place.

It has far lower positive effects than training them to get a job and contribute to society. $800 forever is lower than $800 for a few years and then a lot more than $800 after that.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yep.

Indeed, one could consider whether society shouldn't do both - a universal income so that everyone has at least the basics required to live and low cost (or, better, free) training courses for those who want to try to better themselves. And so, those who are determined not to work can subsist without having to turn to crime while those who want to seek a better life have the tools to do so.

Nobody has to turn to crime. There are free shelters and food places out there. If we remove the mentally ill from the streets like we should, and train people like we should, there will be even more space for them in these places.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Then you're back to giving people free money for nothing. You may not call it that, but that's what it amounts to.

Not the government. If charities want to help people, more power to them.

Edit: It's also not money. It's goods. You can't spend free shelter and food on drugs.
 

Janx

Hero
This has never been the case, and still isn't. It has never been the responsibility of the companies to put you (or anyone else) through college or trade school.



Because post high school education is the responsibility of the person being educated and no one else.

Actually, the big corporations have been quite willing to pay for schooling for their employees. My friend got her masters degree that way. Some folks lacking bachelors who still got into engineering positions, have been sponsored to get those.

Granted, times have changed and budgets have tightened up where that's more rare, but I assure you,it used to be a thing in the 90's at least.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Actually, the big corporations have been quite willing to pay for schooling for their employees. My friend got her masters degree that way. Some folks lacking bachelors who still got into engineering positions, have been sponsored to get those.

Granted, times have changed and budgets have tightened up where that's more rare, but I assure you,it used to be a thing in the 90's at least.

Yes, I know. That's an optional bonus offered by those corporations, though. It's not a responsibility that they have.
 

delericho

Legend
Not the government. If charities want to help people, more power to them.

That's a circular argument.

The bottom line is that some small number of people will refuse to support themselves. One way or another, society will have to pay for them: either the government pays, or charities provide, or they'll turn to crime. Those are the choices - funnily enough, they won't simply choose to starve.

Since society will end up paying one way or another, the question becomes one of how best to do that.
 

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