Firearms

[Saben]

Personally I don't like the idea of a weapon that attacks Reflex. It's novel and kind of suits the idea of a gun, but I think armour would still offer some protection against early guns. Attacking reflex makes it seem too Matrix, in my opinion.

A high proficiency bonus to me doesn't symbolise a gun hitting more easily, but rather penetrating armour more easily. Hitting in this game includes the idea of penetrating armour, after all.

Maybe make that a separate bonus instead of a proficiency bonus. +2 proficiency and -2 to your enemy's armour class (even without proficiency) it still amounts to +4, but makes more sense.

Having a Greataxe that can be used at range isn't too unbalanced if you can't move in the turn you shoot it. A Longbow is essentially a Battleaxe at range...

 

[Sir Brennen]

Inititially, the idea of Att vs. Reflex seemed intriguing, but thinking about it a bit more, there's a few things I don't like about it. First, it changes every power which a class might use with the gun that normal is against AC, possibly leading to some balance problems, especially if, as mentioned above, a Prof bonus is added on top. Second, if we're getting "real world", a crossbow has a much penetration power as a flintlock, yet a crossbow doesn't fire against Ref. Lastly, we're not talking about the real world here. I don't neccessarily want a simple weapon that ignores the AC of dragons and earth elementals.

Having a gun be essentially an encounter power doesn't work for me, either. What's to stop a character from simply toting around multiple guns, thereby increasing their number of per encounter powers?

Many people suggest also making price a balancing factor, essentially making guns magic weapons as far as cost goes. I'm strongly against this as well. I'm in a campaign where I have a gun-slinging character that I want to be able to replicate in 4E. The goal would be to essentially allow him to stack up against, say, a ranger, in terms of damage output and effective use of powers. He should not be gimped by prices which make him unable to afford his main weapon for two or three levels. Nor should something like the reload rate render him useless for entire rounds during the battle, while everyone else continues to do cool stuff. On the other hand, his choice of weapon shouldn't make him better than the longbow-using ranger.

This character archetype should be, IMHO, the baseline to shot for when adding guns into the game. If a character wanted to focus on using firearms, he should be just as viable as any other character, without being overpowered. The 4E philosophy should be kept in mind, focusing on how fun it would be to play such a character, not how closely you've modeled antique firearms in the real world.

I think we need a better understanding of what makes a weapon "balanced" in the new edition. Comparing and balancing a pistol with the crossbow is probably the best place to start. (I don't have the stats infront of me to give specifics).

You've got the following factors to work with:

Prof bonus
Damage
Range
Load Time
Special (i.e., High Crit)
Category​

Modifying one favorably means dropping one down a notch. For instance, adding High Crit seems reasonable, but then either damage should drop a die or the weapon should be moved up to Martial.

Personally, I think the following would work:

Pistol: same stats as shortbow, but with 1/2 the range, High Crit, Off-hand and Minor Action reload properties.

Rifle: same stats as longbow, but with High Crit and Move Action reload.

 

[Dayspire]

I like the way you think, Sir Brennan. A couple of comments.

First, I think the cost of the weapon and the cost of the ammunition should be a factor here. Not at character creation, however. I think if someone has it in his mind that his character uses firearms, give it to him for 50 gold. But after that? Or for rifles? It should be extremely expensive. Ammo, too. When considering the various trade-offs (which you so nicely spelled out) - I think cost should also be a factor, albeit a small one.

I agree with you also on not making firearms go against reflex defense. It sets a bad precedent. Also, they need to be load minor. You want to keep the gun-using character in the combat, right? You want action, yes? Keep him firing and moving, in my opinion.

I'm undecided about High Crit. My gun-wielder is a ranger, and damn if he doesn't do enough damage already...! I may just go for a higher die type of damage, rather than High Crit. Or, perhaps allow for different gun manufacturers to exist, with different types of models.* Hmm.


* My world is very steampunkish, so having gun manufacturers fits quite well, thank you.

 

[Soyokaze]

My Stats

My group has two DMs which run two simultaneous campaigns. For my campaign, I'm planning a pseudo 18th century low fantasy romp. Flintlock weapons have a great deal to do with this era's enticement, so I've developed these stats for including them in my game. I apologize for the clumsiness of the stats blocks, some formatting was lost in posting them here. Please critique them as I want them to be foolproof by the time they reach the gaming table.

Design considerations:

Firearms should fit the following parameters.
1) Fun. D&D is a game, meant to be entertaining. While some people find an accurate representation of historical combat fun, that's not what D&D was built for.

2) Balanced. The guns should fit in D&D, logically representing a firearm as an effective option while not making existing PHB weapons obsolete.

3) Simple. No new rules should be added to incorporate firearms. The existing 4e rules are quite robust. There is no need for additional convolution.

To this end, I've made these stats so that a pistol can be fired once per round easily, and so can a musket providing the user remains stationary.

___________________________________

Melee Weapons

Simple Melee Weapons
Two Handed*
Weapon Prof Damage Range Price Weight Group Properties
Bayonet +2 1d6 - 2gp 2lb Polearm*,Spear* Reach*

RANGED WEAPONS

SIMPLE RANGED WEAPONS
One Handed
Weapon Prof Damage Range Price Weight Group Properties
Grenade +2 1d8 6/12 Area1 30gp 3lb None Small, Light Thrown
Firebomb +2 5** 6/12 Area1 20gp 2lb None Small, Light Thrown

MILITARY RANGED WEAPONS
One-Handed
Weapon Prof Damage Range Price Weight Group Properties
Derringer +2 1d6 10/20 35gp 2lb Firearm Off-Hand, Small, Load Minor
Flintlock Pistol +2 1d8 10/20 40gp 3lb Firearm Load Minor

Two-Handed
Weapon Prof Damage Range Price Weight Group Properties
Blunderbuss +2 1d8 Blast2 45gp 6lb Firearm Load Move
Flintlock Musket +2 1d12 30/60 50gp 8lb Firearm Load Move
*When attached to a musket or blunderbuss. Otherwise treat as a one handed light blade without reach.
**Ongoing fire damage.

Ammunition
Lead Ball(20) 1gp
Lead Shot(20 units) 1gp

____________________________________

For comparison, here are the PHB long arms.

Weapon Prof Damage Range Price Weight Group Properties
Hand Crossbow +2 1d6 10/20 25gp 2lb Crossbow Load free
Crossbow +2 1d8 15/30 25gp 4lb Crossbow Load Minor
Longbow +2 1d10 20/40 30gp 3lb Bow Load Free

Comparing the two...

Firearm advantages...
Increased Damage
Increased Range

Bow/Crossbow advantages...
Stealth: Can be fired without the loud noise and plume of smoke which result from a gunshot.
Versatility: Arrows can be lit on fire, deliver poison, or deliver small objects.
Speed: Bows do not require an action to reload.
Light
Cheap, and can even be made by hand when necessary.

So, the firearms end up being the better main combat weapon, but a player who wanted to use bows for role playing purposes would not be handicapping himself at all.

 

[Khaalis]

So, the firearms end up being the better main combat weapon, but a player who wanted to use bows for role playing purposes would not be handicapping himself at all.

Overall, I like these stats. Clean, simple, to the point. It would be easy to tweak them for individual games, such as increasing the prices. Overall, making most of the firearms basically similar to crossbows is a good idea for balance. I'll likely do almost the same for firearms in my homebrew.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Working on a conversion of the Iron Kingdoms setting Gunmage class in another thread, these are the stats I came up with which balance pretty well against the crossbow and longbow per the criteria I posted earlier in this thread. Fairly similar to Soyokaze's, but I dropped the Prof. bonus 1 (based on comments earlier about unrifled barrels) in exchange for making them high-crit, comparable to existing high-crit melee weapons.

[B]MILITARY RANGED WEAPONS[/B]

One-Handed
Weapon          Prof.   Damage   Range   Price   Weight  Group    Properties
Light Pistol     +1      1d8     5/10   30 gp    2 lb.  Firearm  High-crit, load minor, off-hand, small
Military Pistol  +1      1d10    10/20   50 gp    4 lb.  Firearm  High-crit, load minor, off-hand

Two-Handed
Weapon  Prof.  Damage   Range   Price   Weight  Group    Properties
Rifle   +1      1d12    20/40   75 gp    6 lb.  Firearm  Load minor, high-crit

These weapons are not of the powder-horn, wadding and ram-rod loading type, but use the Iron Kingdom's model of bullet and alchemical gunpowder inside a small silk bag, or "cartridge", giving load times which, while not "historically accurate", make for an actually playable option for characters who want to focus on gun-wielding. These are fantasy firearms for a fantasy game.

 

[77IM]

Here's my take on firearms (I'm re-reading the Dark Tower series so I've been thinking about this a lot). These are all noticeably better than the existing ranged weapons -- even though they require a feat, they are still probably a bit overpowered. I decided not to make their base damage any better than the military ranged weapons, but the +3 prof bonus combined with High Crit is pretty good, and the Spread Shot is also pretty powerful.



HEROIC FEATS

FIREARM PROFICIENCY
Benefit: You are proficient in all weapons in the firearms group.

WEAPON GROUPS
Firearms: Firearms are ranged weapons that project metallic bullets at high speeds. Add your Dexterity modifier to attacks and damage with firearms, rather than your Strength modifier.

WEAPON PROPERTIES
Operation: This is similar to the load property of other ranged weapons, except that firearms hold their ammo in some sort of internal magazine. The operation (or "action," in common firearms parlance) required to chamber a round may take some time and effort from the user. If the table shows "operation free," then the weapon has an automatic action and can be fired at any time -- rounds are chambered automatically as part of the action you take to use the weapon. If the table shows "operation minor," then you must take a minor action to use your free hand to operate the weapon's loading mechanism before you can fire with it. Once you've taken this action, the round is chambered and ready to be fired, even on subsequent rounds. After you fire the weapon, you must take the minor action again to chamber a new round before firing. If a power allows you to hit multiple targets, the additional load time is accounted for in the power.
Spread Shot: The weapon fires a spread of smaller projectiles instead of a single bullet. If you miss against a target within 3 squares, you deal half damage. If you're using a power that already deals damage on a miss, deal that amount or deal half damage, whichever is higher. Against a target at long range, you deal half damage even on a hit, and no damage on a miss.

RANGED WEAPONS

[B]FIREARM RANGED WEAPONS[/B]
[I]One-Handed[/I]
[U]Weapon            Prof.  Damage  Range  Price  Weight  Group     Properties[/U]
Hold-Out Pistol    +3     1d4    10/20  60 gp   2 lb.  Firearms  Off-hand, high crit, operation free
Light Pistol       +3     1d6    10/20  50 gp   3 lb.  Firearms  Off-hand, high crit, operation free
Heavy Pistol       +3     1d8    10/20  60 gp   4 lb.  Firearms  Off-hand, high crit, operation free

[I]Two-Handed[/I]
[U]Weapon            Prof.  Damage  Range  Price  Weight  Group     Properties[/U]
Hunting Rifle      +3     1d8    20/40  40gp    7 lb.  Firearms  Small, high crit, operation minor
Assault Rifle      +3     1d10   20/40  60gp    9 lb.  Firearms  High crit, operation free
Sniper Rifle       +3     1d10   40/80  70gp    15 lb. Firearms  High crit, operation minor
Large-Bore Rifle   +2     1d12   20/40  80gp    15 lb. Firearms  High crit, operation minor
Hunting Shotgun    +2     1d8    6/12   40gp    8 lb.  Firearms  Spread shot, operation minor
Combat Shotgun     +2     1d10   6/12   60gp    9 lb.  Firearms  Spread shot, operation minor

 

[Pbartender]

My group has two DMs which run two simultaneous campaigns. For my campaign, I'm planning a pseudo 18th century low fantasy romp. Flintlock weapons have a great deal to do with this era's enticement, so I've developed these stats for including them in my game. I apologize for the clumsiness of the stats blocks, some formatting was lost in posting them here. Please critique them as I want them to be foolproof by the time they reach the gaming table.

Design considerations:

Firearms should fit the following parameters.
1) Fun. D&D is a game, meant to be entertaining. While some people find an accurate representation of historical combat fun, that's not what D&D was built for.

2) Balanced. The guns should fit in D&D, logically representing a firearm as an effective option while not making existing PHB weapons obsolete.

3) Simple. No new rules should be added to incorporate firearms. The existing 4e rules are quite robust. There is no need for additional convolution.

To this end, I've made these stats so that a pistol can be fired once per round easily, and so can a musket providing the user remains stationary.

I like them... I'm planning on an "Age of Exploration" campaign during a time period roughly analogous to the late 15th and early 16th centuries. My plans for fire arms are fairly close to yours, though slightly different to allow for vagaries of the different time period and campaign styles.

I'd also planned in introducing something like the following feat:

MUSKETEER [Rogue]

Prerequisite: Dex 13, rogue
Benefit: For the purposes of power requirements, firearms count as crossbows.