Fireball vs Orb - Demonweb Pits Data (no spoilers)

[IanB]

Out of curiosity, why is the evoker penetrating SR at level+1? I would think that most builds would be doing so at either +0, +2, or +4.

If we're assuming that the conjurer is focused enough to have PBS/precise shot and a (relatively high IMO) ranged touch attack bonus for the level, presumably we should be assuming that the evoker has taken the feats that are most necessary to make his build work as well, like spell penetration and greater spell penetration?

Very interesting, nevertheless.

 

[gnfnrf]

Out of curiosity, why is the evoker penetrating SR at level+1? I would think that most builds would be doing so at either +0, +2, or +4.

The evoker penetrates at +1 because I am an idiot who misremembered Spell Penetration. I will fix it momentarily; fortunately, it is pretty simple to do so.

If we're assuming that the conjurer is focused enough to have PBS/precise shot and a (relatively high IMO) ranged touch attack bonus for the level, presumably we should be assuming that the evoker has taken the feats that are most necessary to make his build work as well, like spell penetration and greater spell penetration?

I figured the conjurer would have a dex of 18 and PBS/Precise or Rod of Precision/WF:Ranged Spell, which gets him those numbers. Thus, 1 or 2 feats commited. The evoker has Spell Focus Evocation and was supposed to have Spell Penetration, to match the two feats.

If you have alternate builds, by all means propose them. Please be explicit as to the DCs, ranged touch, and spell penetration at each level.

--
gnfnrf

EDIT: Checked with corrected numbers for Spell Penetration, and the results did not change. In most cases, the winning strategy is clear enough that little tweaks of the numbers will not affect it.

 

[gnfnrf]

But maybe I'm missing the point of this discussion.

This is a response to this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=195268 , which is itself a response to a thread. Essentially, people claim that the Orbs are SO much better than evocations that it isn't a question of which spell is right for the situation; the orb is right in every situation.

My analysis appears to disprove that. I'm tempted to run Empowered Scorching Ray vs. Orb of Fire and see how that works out.

--
gnfnrf

 

[Felix]

I think it is worth noting that in the previous Orb threads the results that point to brokeness occur generally around levels 12+. This is when SR becomes much more common by CR in the Monster Manual, and would therefore start to reduce the effectiveness of the Evocations but not touch the efficasy of the Orbs.

Before SR becomes common there is not so much a balance issue between the Orbs and equivalent evocations.

Sure, if you happen to be one of the folks that goes with the IMO illogical interpretation that nonmagical fire created by magic doesn't act like nonmagic fire.

In my campaigns, only characters that take the Disciple of Dhalsim can hurl spontaneously created balls of fire with any degree of accuracy without the aid of residual magic.

And they smell like spicy tofu.

 

[FireLance]

I think it is worth noting that in the previous Orb threads the results that point to brokeness occur generally around levels 12+. This is when SR becomes much more common by CR in the Monster Manual, and would therefore start to reduce the effectiveness of the Evocations but not touch the efficasy of the Orbs.

I don't have an exact breakdown, but it was previously pointed out that most of the fights are against drow and outsiders, so it seems likely that most of the opponents faced in this adventure would have SR. The relative ease of getting through the SR is another matter, of course.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

My prediction of empowered scorching ray vs. orbs is:

Empowered Scorching ray is significantly better than an orb of fire at levels 7-9--as long as spell resistance isn't a factor and fire resistance isn't common, AND you don't care about the orb of fire's secondary effect (which is potentially devastating).

At level 10, I would expect that the damage in non-spell resistance, non fire resistance situations is good enough that orb of fire is a competitive choice.

At level 11, empowered scorching ray should rule the roost again

By level 15, the orb should be close enough that it's a competitive choice in terms of damage.

I also predict that the orb shows itself to be dramatically superior whenever faced with fire resistance, SR, or very high touch ACs (since the orb can be combined with true strike but true strike would only effect the first ray of a scorching ray spell).

I would also expect that the orb spells gain a slight advantage in higher level spell slots with the use of metamagic. (maximized clvl 15 orb of fire=90 damage; empowered and maximized scorching ray=72+21 or 93 damage on average which is similar enough the secondary effect and SR=no and better synergy with true strike should win out; In 8th level slots, an empowered and admixed scorching ray should be (if I interpret the rules correctly) 12d6x1.5 fire +12d6 other energy type for effectively 30d6; vs. 15d6 fire and 15d6 other energy type for 30d6 on the orb).

This is a response to this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=195268 , which is itself a response to a thread. Essentially, people claim that the Orbs are SO much better than evocations that it isn't a question of which spell is right for the situation; the orb is right in every situation.

My analysis appears to disprove that. I'm tempted to run Empowered Scorching Ray vs. Orb of Fire and see how that works out.

--
gnfnrf

 

[Henry]

Did these encounters include lots of lower-level foes, or just singular high-level foes? I think it was always conceded that cannon fodder is a prime target for Fireballs, cones of cold, etc. whereas the Orb was an absolute killer against singular targets, typically with high SR, and low touch AC, which comprise half of the high CR's in the Monster manual. If any of those encounters had beefed-up touch ACs from the norm (usually 10 to 20) then you'd see the effectiveness of the orbs go down.

 

[shmoo2]

gnfnrf,
Very intersting, indeed. As noted by Felix, previous analysis showed the orbs to be mostly balanced in this level range. They really get crazy at levels 13+.

But, It is hard to interpret your data without seeing the actual encounters, monsters, number of foes involved.
Could you (using hidden text to protect vs. spoilers) post the actual encounters? If possible could you include the CR, Ref. Save, Touch AC, SR, and energy resistances of the non-SRD foes?

thanks,
Nat

 

[gnfnrf]

Shmoo2, I'm not comfortable posting the complete encounter breakdown, since I'm not sure that it is a reasonable use copyrighted material.

Henry, Felix, this is a breakdown of what the encounters are like in character.

Of the 49 statted encounters and 74 foe types (note that this is distinct statblock per encounter met), the following are charactaristic.

The average number of foes per encounter is 2.92.
13 encounters are against a single foe. (11 of those favor the orb, one is even, and one (against a swarm) favors the evocation)

40 of the 74 foe types have spell resistance. Among them, the average spell resistance is 19.

The average touch AC is 12.57. It is less than 10 in 13 cases, and greater than 20 in 3 cases.

The average reflex save modifier is +8.46. It is less than +3 in only 4 cases, and greater than +15 in 8 cases.

22 of the foe types have qualities that affect the numbers other than these. They are immune to criticals, have evasion, are displaced, are immune to spells, immune to single target effects, or some other property.

As an aside, after running MM vs Lesser Orb, the lesser orb is totally dominant, being a better choice against 65 of the 74 foe types. Of course, this doesn't take into account range or the multitarget option of MM.

--
gnfnrf

 

[Chiaroscuro23]

This is a response to this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=195268 , which is itself a response to a thread. Essentially, people claim that the Orbs are SO much better than evocations that it isn't a question of which spell is right for the situation; the orb is right in every situation.

My analysis appears to disprove that. I'm tempted to run Empowered Scorching Ray vs. Orb of Fire and see how that works out.

--
gnfnrf

I don't know that I'd say "disproves," though it does add more data. Certainly "all the entries in the MM" is different than "in one particular campaign" in an important way.

In any event, however, the two kinds of spells being situationally superior is really secondary to the issue of breaking absolute prohibitions. Diviners who ban evocation can all throw Orbs. AMF is supposed to beat magic, but doesn't beat this. Given the rock-paper-scissors approach of D&D, it's odd to allow an end-run around these restrictions (based in part on balance and in part on flavor), even if they were always significantly weaker than the normal options. That they're sometimes as strong or even stronger is a problem, from that perspective. Obviously not everyone agrees; there's been an astounding amount of debate on it, and I haven't even read most of it. I've just been astounded as a mostly-lurker!