Simulacrum
First Post
doesnt Firebrand require you to select "TARGETS" so the blast originates from the people you select, you cant target a point in space......or???
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Firebrand - balanced?
- Thread starter Al'Kelhar
- Start date
Mephistopheles
First Post
No, Simulacrum, they're just 5 ft bursts which you can center anywhere you like within the usual rules for targeting.
Looking at the spells superficially firebrand doesn't look too bad. A 15th level caster casting firebrand gets 15 5 ft radius balls with a total area of approximately 1180 sq ft, while a 20ft spread has an area of approximately 1260 sq ft. A 15th level caster casting fireball (or delayed blast fireball) has a range of 1000 ft while the range for firebrand would be 250 ft.
Transferring real areas to squares changes the picture a bit. A 5 ft spread has an approximate area of 80sq ft, but looking at the area diagrams on 3.5 DMG p307 we see that when translated to squares each 5 ft spread has an area of 100 sq ft. This takes the total area of the 15 5 ft radius balls up to 1500 sq ft from 1180 sq ft. Looking at the diagram for a 20 ft spread the total area is 1100 sq ft down from 1260 sq ft. So the total area of a fireball shrinks by more than 10% while the total area of firebrand goes up by more than 25%. (As an aside, a think a fairer mapping for a 20 ft spread is for the "outer" ring with only 2 squares each to have 4 instead, which would make the area covered 1300 sq ft, closer to the real area of 1260 sq ft)
At 15th level would you cast delayed blast fireball to cover 1100 sq ft (using the DMG diagrams) with 15d6 damage (average 52) or would you cast an empowered firebrand to cover 1500 sq ft with 15 placeable 100 sq ft blocks for 15d6*1.5 damage (average 78)? Or at 20th level, would you cast delayed blast fireball to cover 1100 sq ft with 20d6 damage (average 70) or an empowered firebrand to cover 1500 sq ft with 15 placeable 100 sq ft blocks for 15d6*1.5 (average 78)? Unless you expect to be fighting at long range (ie/ more than 250 ft or so) it seems like the higher damage, greater area and ability to spread the area around selectively make the empowered firebrand a clear winner.
Moving on to chain lightning I'd agree with Simulacrum that it's not very good. At 15th level you get 15d6 on one target and 7d6 on 15 others. Averaging this out, we can almost discard the single 15d6 target and consider chain lightning to do 7d6 damage when cast by a 15th level caster. At 20th level this averaging effect is even stronger, with one target at 20d6 and another 20 at 10d6, giving an effective damage of 10d6 when cast by a 20th level caster. Chain lightning is long range, but that's about all it has going for it over the lower level firebrand. There may be some particular circumstances where chain lightning has an advantage, the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are higher save DCs and that it's the only 6th level spell that a 16th+ level caster can do more than 15d6 damage to a single target at long range, there are probably more. In general I think I'd favour a heightened firebrand over chain lightning and hope that I'd have enough mobility to make up for the shorter range of firebrand.
Looking at the spells superficially firebrand doesn't look too bad. A 15th level caster casting firebrand gets 15 5 ft radius balls with a total area of approximately 1180 sq ft, while a 20ft spread has an area of approximately 1260 sq ft. A 15th level caster casting fireball (or delayed blast fireball) has a range of 1000 ft while the range for firebrand would be 250 ft.
Transferring real areas to squares changes the picture a bit. A 5 ft spread has an approximate area of 80sq ft, but looking at the area diagrams on 3.5 DMG p307 we see that when translated to squares each 5 ft spread has an area of 100 sq ft. This takes the total area of the 15 5 ft radius balls up to 1500 sq ft from 1180 sq ft. Looking at the diagram for a 20 ft spread the total area is 1100 sq ft down from 1260 sq ft. So the total area of a fireball shrinks by more than 10% while the total area of firebrand goes up by more than 25%. (As an aside, a think a fairer mapping for a 20 ft spread is for the "outer" ring with only 2 squares each to have 4 instead, which would make the area covered 1300 sq ft, closer to the real area of 1260 sq ft)
At 15th level would you cast delayed blast fireball to cover 1100 sq ft (using the DMG diagrams) with 15d6 damage (average 52) or would you cast an empowered firebrand to cover 1500 sq ft with 15 placeable 100 sq ft blocks for 15d6*1.5 damage (average 78)? Or at 20th level, would you cast delayed blast fireball to cover 1100 sq ft with 20d6 damage (average 70) or an empowered firebrand to cover 1500 sq ft with 15 placeable 100 sq ft blocks for 15d6*1.5 (average 78)? Unless you expect to be fighting at long range (ie/ more than 250 ft or so) it seems like the higher damage, greater area and ability to spread the area around selectively make the empowered firebrand a clear winner.
Moving on to chain lightning I'd agree with Simulacrum that it's not very good. At 15th level you get 15d6 on one target and 7d6 on 15 others. Averaging this out, we can almost discard the single 15d6 target and consider chain lightning to do 7d6 damage when cast by a 15th level caster. At 20th level this averaging effect is even stronger, with one target at 20d6 and another 20 at 10d6, giving an effective damage of 10d6 when cast by a 20th level caster. Chain lightning is long range, but that's about all it has going for it over the lower level firebrand. There may be some particular circumstances where chain lightning has an advantage, the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are higher save DCs and that it's the only 6th level spell that a 16th+ level caster can do more than 15d6 damage to a single target at long range, there are probably more. In general I think I'd favour a heightened firebrand over chain lightning and hope that I'd have enough mobility to make up for the shorter range of firebrand.
Al'Kelhar said:
One of my favorites, in fact; it's much easier to actually GET multiple foes in it's AoE withotu burning my own friends, than a normal Empowered Fireball ... even if the damage of Firebrand IS less than that same Empowered Fireball, until 15th level.
As has been quoted to you from the errata, it doesn't workt hat way. The creature takes 15d6 from the spell, and only 15d6.
No, that'd eviscerate the spell beyond belief.
The real beauty of Firebrand is, your enemies can spread out all they want, and the spell can still reach out and touch as many as all of them ... and you don't have to burn yoru own allies in the process. It's got an amazingly flexible AoE for a damaging spell, which IMO is it's real selling point.
Simulacrum said:
Nope. It's an Effect/Area spell, not a Target spell.
Simulacrum
First Post
....then that should be changed to cap the power of firebrand. Its too strong (as proven by mephisto) with the area of effect imho, or move it up to 6th level.
chain lightning is a JOKE that we all agree on.
Delayed blast fireball is a JOKE, giving it larger AoE and d8 for damage and its ok again.
Or maybe its just firebrand, but then again high level evocation "should do something".
chain lightning is a JOKE that we all agree on.
Delayed blast fireball is a JOKE, giving it larger AoE and d8 for damage and its ok again.
Or maybe its just firebrand, but then again high level evocation "should do something".
drnuncheon
Explorer
I don't think that firebrand needs to be capped. Essentially, you are paying +2 spell levels for the ability to 'sculpt' the spell rather than have it be a radius.
I'll note that fire storm (druid, 7th level) affects two 10' cubes per level (in other words, pretty much twice as much area), and has a higher damage cap. I'd say that firebrand is roughly between that and fireball, so 5th level is about right.
I'll note that fire storm (druid, 7th level) affects two 10' cubes per level (in other words, pretty much twice as much area), and has a higher damage cap. I'd say that firebrand is roughly between that and fireball, so 5th level is about right.
5th level fits IMO. MAYBE I could accept it climbing to 6th. Personally, I think Chain Lightning is the one that could use being tweaked. d8's for damage, for example.
Generally speaking, single-target to single-target, Empowered Fireball will beat Firebrand at all caster levels from 9th to 14th, and tie it form 15th onward (further metamagics not withstanding).
Generally speaking, single-target to single-target, Empowered Fireball will beat Firebrand at all caster levels from 9th to 14th, and tie it form 15th onward (further metamagics not withstanding).
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Yeah; I agree. Chain lightning (and CoC for that matter) are pretty sucktastic spells for their level. Firebrand is actually decently balanced; it's the other spells that need amping up.
As for the 5' area: Thanks for pointing this out, guys! I've been having players claim it's a 5' square rather than a 5' radius burst, which allows them much greater precision (at the cost of AoE, but who needs all that area in 90% of cases?). 5'r bursts (calculated, therefore, from gridline intersections) it is!
As for the 5' area: Thanks for pointing this out, guys! I've been having players claim it's a 5' square rather than a 5' radius burst, which allows them much greater precision (at the cost of AoE, but who needs all that area in 90% of cases?). 5'r bursts (calculated, therefore, from gridline intersections) it is!
Simulacrum
First Post
agree on all posts above.
CL and CoC needs serious upward treatment.
Especialy since we play on maps that are over 400 feet in length, with the models being just 5mm wide and 1cm = 10 feet.
CL and CoC needs serious upward treatment.
Especialy since we play on maps that are over 400 feet in length, with the models being just 5mm wide and 1cm = 10 feet.
Dash Dannigan
First Post
A lil OT
Not to steer too much off-topic (and wrong forum I might add) but would simply switching Chain Lightning and CoC dice to d8's give these spells the boost they should have? More punch but less flexibility as far as range/space?
Not to steer too much off-topic (and wrong forum I might add) but would simply switching Chain Lightning and CoC dice to d8's give these spells the boost they should have? More punch but less flexibility as far as range/space?
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