Firing into a grapple

[Arrond Hess]

I was hopeing that someone could point me in the right direction on this... Are there any rules in place for firing a ranged weapon into a grapple? Last night this came up in our game, and my DM used a 50/50 ruling, of hitting either my target or the PC engaged in the grapple. So far, I havn't been able to find any rules supporting this, so I thought I would ask for any imput out here.

Thanks in advance

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The rules state that, when making a ranged attack into a grapple, you determine the target randomly.

That's it.

They don't say, "Even chances for all participants," or "determine randomly based on size," or anything else.

50 / 50 (into a 2-person grapple) is a perfectly valid method of determining the actual target.

3 Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike. That defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC.

 

[Infiniti2000]

As Patryn said.

There are many houserules covering this situation, out of necessity. Would you be interested in such suggestions?

 

[Arrond Hess]

Thanks for the reply's guys.

As Patryn said.

There are many houserules covering this situation, out of necessity. Would you be interested in such suggestions?

Aye, I would be interested in seeing some of those. I've been out of the DM'ing scene for quite some time and it would be interesting to see how others have approached this topic, as I am getting ready to take over the DM reigns soon.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, the easiest (and probably most common) is "everyone has an equal chance." Into a 2-person grapple, there's a 50 / 50 shot of hitting either one. Into a 10 person grapple, there's a 10% chance of hitting any given target.

The next most common is based on size. Basically, pick the smallest size in the melee. Give them a value of 1. Each size category larger doubles the weighting. Then, determine randomly based on each potential target's share of the total weights. For grapples of identically-sized participants, this works out identically to the above.

Consider the following examples:

1. Two humans (Size M): Each has a value of 1, and is therefore 1 / 2, or 50% likely to be the target.

2. One halfling (S), one human (M): 1 (Halfling) + 2 (Human) = 33% chance of hitting the halfling, 66% chance of hitting the human

3. One halfling (S), one human (M), one ogre (L): 1 (Halfling) + 2 (Human) + 4 (Orgre) = 14% halfling, 29% human, 57% ogre

A variant on the above is to weight the intended target as one size larger.

 

[Eloi]

Houserule: Both (all) grapplers are considered not to have their Dex boni, are considered both prone and recieving cover from the other combatants opposed to them. 1:1 is 50% cover, 2:1 provides 75% cover and allows the firer to shoot at a Flanked (distracted) opponent if firing at the numerically superior side. Missing your target means rerolling your attack against another grappling combatant, chosen at random.

When four Orcs are struggling with a Mage, it is easier to hit an Orc than to thread a shot in at the Mage.

When firing into a grapple, the feat Precise Shot adds +4 to hit and removes the chance of hitting the wrong side's grapplers by accident.

 

[frankthedm]

50/50 each for same size

66.6 /33.3 for a large/Medium In a normal grapple

75/25 For huge / medium in a normal grapple

75/25 For Large / Medium in improved grab [in mouth about to swallow whole next round] & constrict situations where i feel the critter would be 'covering up' its victim with mouth or body.

87.5 / 12.5 [1-7 / 8] For Huge / Medium in improved grab [in mouth about to swallow whole next round] & constrict situations where i feel the critter would be 'covering up' its victim with mouth or body.

 

[Arrond Hess]

Thanks for the "size difference" house-rules.
Deffinitely some food for thought.

 

[pokedigimaniac]

And how about melee-attacking into a grapple? Any penalties there for the attacker? (Yes, I know that the defender loses his/her Dex bonus to AC.)

 

[shilsen]

And how about melee-attacking into a grapple? Any penalties there for the attacker? (Yes, I know that the defender loses his/her Dex bonus to AC.)

No. The chance of hitting the wrong target only applies to ranged attacks into a grapple. This is why grapplers tend to love their melee rogue allies and vice versa