I got together today with the DnD meetup group from Austin, Tejas. A good group of guys overall and I want to say thanks to Flynn for organizing it and thanks to Joseph, Steve, Alan and guy-who-joined-in-to-play for enduring my maiden voyage with 4e.
MY FIRST MISTAKE
First off, we were under a bit of a time crunch so I skipped all the fluffy bits of setup I'd cribbed prior to the session. BIG MISTAKE.
I'd set KotS in the Wilderlands setting (hex 1704, map 8) and put the PCs smack-dab in the middle of a power-grab by Lady Alena of Castle Mandan (hex 2529, map 5) and Morthor Cor of Palen Spring (map 8, near 1704).
None of that had anything to do with the adventure-as-written besides giving it some much needed context in the grand scheme and helping the PCs rationalize why they would be headed to Winterhaven.
Like I said, big mistake not leading in with that. But i was concerned that 4 guys (3 almost completely new to 4e) would have a tough enough time with the rules.
Joseph quickly corrected that by asking many questions and (voila) it was soon revealed that I was withholding a bit from the setup and I then corrected and gave out the barest inkling of what was going on and why (from a background perspective) to get the dice rolling.
That said, one of my chief gripes about KotS are the "Hooks" and Motivations. I just found them lacking on the whole. Easy enough to correct though. And I had no problem bringing my own.
FIRST BLOODIED
So we started with the first combat/encounter in the book with the Elf Ranger, Tiefling Warlord, Half-Elf Cleric and Human Wizard pre-gens. I'd done a few test runs and decided that bringing the baddies full might be a bad idea. So I toned it down a little bit.
My concerns were unwarranted.
They mopped the floor with them in just under 2 rounds. The combat was quick by Risus standards.
And after it was done, the PCs -- who hadn't really been banged up much -- decided to rest. I guess this was the long shadow of the 15-minute adventuring day being cast from 3e but I went with it -- with the caveat that it completely derailed -- or at least delayed -- the rest of the adventure-as-written.
But, hey, I figured "Players Know Best" in this instance so they set up camp.
And did what any self-respecting GM/DM would do...
BRING ON THE SECOND ENCOUNTER
So Encounter Two got leapfrogged up before the trip to town. Fair enough, I reasoned it was generic enough that it could always return in some form later in the session if it needed to.
The Elf Ranger had a busy night covering tracks and camouflaging the campsite. I guesstimated that this would be covered by the Nature skill (?) and he rolled high enough that it should have had some impact.
So my judgment call was that it wouldn't prevent the badguys from finding the campsite (Hellooo, campfire...) but his efforts would prevent the badguys from surprising them.
And so it began...
Encounter Two was a little tougher but still not too bad. No one got dropped, although the Warlord and Ranger got close. I had the feeling that the Players definitely did not want to undertake this again in the same night. But no one was truly in danger of serious trauma.
After Encounter #2, two of the players' time was up and I'd erroneously thought we'd gone longer than we actually had. We could've probably continued for a good hour or more. For that, I apologize to Joseph and Alan. My bad. I thought it was at least 5:30. Turns out it was just about 4:30.
THE VERDICT
Running 4e is definitely a different beast than running 3e but overall it still felt very much like D&D. I'd argue a little moreso than 3e did. But that's more a personal impression than anything concrete.
Keeping track of conditions wasn't a big deal. We didn't run into too many of them and I'd come prepared for that due to my earlier experience at a 4e Demo last month.
Keeping track of marks was a pretty big deal. And I dropped the mark, as it were, a number of times. Out and out forgetting about monsters' marks. Fortunately, only one of the Player's used a mark and that worked out fine by me.
I became very concerned during play about how easy 4e would be for new people to learn. We had one guy there who hadn't played since the days of 1e and oftentimes I'd have to sort of translate what different powers meant and what things like minor, move and standard actions were. It had been so long since I played D&D without them that I forgot what it was like.
The biggest problems were with the powers. There were a plethora and it wasn't always clear when one was better to use than another. Of the four players, I'd say one used his powers effectively, two kept up as best they could and the fourth wasn't really into it to begin with and pretty much mailed it in. In all fairness, the last guy mentioned was a nice guy but was totally into Pathfinder and had some real beefs with 4e.
So it wasn't impossible for completely new people to hop on board. And even the guys having a tough time or just completely sandbagging the operation still had viable contributions. But it didn't occur to me that the new player options would be that complex.
Food for thought.
THE GOOD
THE BAD
(yes, he's going there...)
THE UGLY
MY FIRST MISTAKE
First off, we were under a bit of a time crunch so I skipped all the fluffy bits of setup I'd cribbed prior to the session. BIG MISTAKE.
I'd set KotS in the Wilderlands setting (hex 1704, map 8) and put the PCs smack-dab in the middle of a power-grab by Lady Alena of Castle Mandan (hex 2529, map 5) and Morthor Cor of Palen Spring (map 8, near 1704).
None of that had anything to do with the adventure-as-written besides giving it some much needed context in the grand scheme and helping the PCs rationalize why they would be headed to Winterhaven.
Like I said, big mistake not leading in with that. But i was concerned that 4 guys (3 almost completely new to 4e) would have a tough enough time with the rules.
Joseph quickly corrected that by asking many questions and (voila) it was soon revealed that I was withholding a bit from the setup and I then corrected and gave out the barest inkling of what was going on and why (from a background perspective) to get the dice rolling.
That said, one of my chief gripes about KotS are the "Hooks" and Motivations. I just found them lacking on the whole. Easy enough to correct though. And I had no problem bringing my own.
FIRST BLOODIED
So we started with the first combat/encounter in the book with the Elf Ranger, Tiefling Warlord, Half-Elf Cleric and Human Wizard pre-gens. I'd done a few test runs and decided that bringing the baddies full might be a bad idea. So I toned it down a little bit.
My concerns were unwarranted.
They mopped the floor with them in just under 2 rounds. The combat was quick by Risus standards.
And after it was done, the PCs -- who hadn't really been banged up much -- decided to rest. I guess this was the long shadow of the 15-minute adventuring day being cast from 3e but I went with it -- with the caveat that it completely derailed -- or at least delayed -- the rest of the adventure-as-written.
But, hey, I figured "Players Know Best" in this instance so they set up camp.
And did what any self-respecting GM/DM would do...
BRING ON THE SECOND ENCOUNTER
So Encounter Two got leapfrogged up before the trip to town. Fair enough, I reasoned it was generic enough that it could always return in some form later in the session if it needed to.
The Elf Ranger had a busy night covering tracks and camouflaging the campsite. I guesstimated that this would be covered by the Nature skill (?) and he rolled high enough that it should have had some impact.
So my judgment call was that it wouldn't prevent the badguys from finding the campsite (Hellooo, campfire...) but his efforts would prevent the badguys from surprising them.
And so it began...
Encounter Two was a little tougher but still not too bad. No one got dropped, although the Warlord and Ranger got close. I had the feeling that the Players definitely did not want to undertake this again in the same night. But no one was truly in danger of serious trauma.
After Encounter #2, two of the players' time was up and I'd erroneously thought we'd gone longer than we actually had. We could've probably continued for a good hour or more. For that, I apologize to Joseph and Alan. My bad. I thought it was at least 5:30. Turns out it was just about 4:30.
THE VERDICT
Running 4e is definitely a different beast than running 3e but overall it still felt very much like D&D. I'd argue a little moreso than 3e did. But that's more a personal impression than anything concrete.
Keeping track of conditions wasn't a big deal. We didn't run into too many of them and I'd come prepared for that due to my earlier experience at a 4e Demo last month.
Keeping track of marks was a pretty big deal. And I dropped the mark, as it were, a number of times. Out and out forgetting about monsters' marks. Fortunately, only one of the Player's used a mark and that worked out fine by me.
I became very concerned during play about how easy 4e would be for new people to learn. We had one guy there who hadn't played since the days of 1e and oftentimes I'd have to sort of translate what different powers meant and what things like minor, move and standard actions were. It had been so long since I played D&D without them that I forgot what it was like.
The biggest problems were with the powers. There were a plethora and it wasn't always clear when one was better to use than another. Of the four players, I'd say one used his powers effectively, two kept up as best they could and the fourth wasn't really into it to begin with and pretty much mailed it in. In all fairness, the last guy mentioned was a nice guy but was totally into Pathfinder and had some real beefs with 4e.
So it wasn't impossible for completely new people to hop on board. And even the guys having a tough time or just completely sandbagging the operation still had viable contributions. But it didn't occur to me that the new player options would be that complex.
Food for thought.
THE GOOD
- Monsters were sooooo much more fun to run in 4e.
- I liked the new Saving Throws a lot more than I thought I would, even after playing the demo. Ditching durations was a good move.
- I liked Bloodied a lot. I'd always approached Hit Points as this uber-abstract thing. You know, the way the designers say they're meant to be. But it always devolved into a hit, take-damage type of thing. Bloodied gave me a milestone to narrate how fatigue set in on the opponents or how maybe a strike penetrated their defenses and caused a flesh wound. My biggest hurdle was magic. How to narrate that? Meh. I'm an Iron Heroes kind-of guy anyway. Once Martial Power comes out it's all Rituals for me... (sweeet)
- I went in sweating a TPK (after some test runs) and came out with my bollocks in a plastic bag. To which I say... HALLAY-FRIKKIN-LOO-YAH. Seriously. Within bounds of reason -- really, who unleashes Vecna on a 1st level party? -- I can now stop worrying about CR, just throw it at the players and let them deal with it. I haven't felt this kind of freedom since 2e. Sure, there's no accounting for bad die rolls (although Elven Accuracy helps). But I no longer feel the need to sit with pen and paper and add up all the CRs and have them align just so, yadda, yadda, buh-bye 6-hour prep.
THE BAD
- Marks prove to me that you can go two steps forward and one step back. For me, marks are the new AoOs. Not that I don't think they have their use (like AoOs, now OAs) but keeping track of them was a bit out of hand -- considering I had 2-3 critters that could mark at a given time. Maybe that's something I could learn to love, though.
- Oh... man... did the crew suffer from Option Overload on the powers. I'm concerned that there's no longer a swing-and-a-miss guy like the Fighter used to be in previous editions. You know, for the casual gamer or the newbie just learning the ropes. I totally understand the changes to the classes and approve of most of them (Wizard still has me on a fence) but I do fear for the youth of America trying to learn this game for the first time, especially now with powers tacked on. Maybe DDI can release a balanced basic attack and feats guy that new people can walk through the first few levels. My early nomination for the name of the class would be Batter -- as in "Swing, batter, batter, swing!"
(yes, he's going there...)
THE UGLY
- We never made it to Winterhaven, which was a bummer. I was all set to try out the RPG aspects of the new edition. Maybe even spread my wings with a Skill Challenge.
- It takes many rowers but only one anchor. Yup, one guy being completely not into it ("it" being 4e) can rub off on so many others. Especially with 4e pumping the teamwork thing up to Wonder Pets levels with the new roles and all, one guy really can spell sub-optimal play. Not knocking anybody. It may completely be me giving a craptastic afternoon of DMing. The fella wasn't disruptive in the least -- just disinterested in pretty much everything. A word of warning to all those seeking to introduce your groups to the new edition.
- Blessed Mearls, wisest and most honorable of all the Wizards of the Great Northwest, I've copy-pasted everything you've ever said about gridless play with 4e (Googled it too to make sure I got it all) and I am still a lost little lamb in the labrynth of one-inch squares. So, I beeseech thee to come visit for South-by-Southwest or ACL Festival. You can stay in my guestroom (but have to buy your own tickets). But please impart to me the inner wisdom of your riddle of gridless 4e. Or send your herald Mouseferatu to school me. Because I really, really, really want to do it. But I don't see how I can -- especially after running 4e. I mean, I'm looking at the red pill and the blue pill but right now I'm not seeing much of a spoon there. Please free me from this
matrix, I mean, grid. At the very least, playing with a grid was more fun in 4e. It's more of a "see I can do this neat thing" as opposed to a gauge strictly for range, movement and AoOs. If I must use a grid, I will. But I will be sad and photoshop Mike's face on Orcus.
- Can we get a character sheet or some Power Cards or something?! This is my biggest gripe. I didn't have this big a problem with the DDXP characters. But the layout of the KotS pregens doesn't facilitate the whole "learning this game quickly" thing. Power Cards would be money well spent, if/when they're available. A character sheet designed with awesome is mandatory like yesterday.
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