First timer's First Question

[Petey7]

Killing isn't the only way to get experience (technically it depends on the DM). The DMG and DMG2 havw information on doing experience outside of battle. A lot of DMs doing roleplaying experience, storyline experience, or experience for getting around certain challenges rather than facing them head on (such as casting deafness on a sleeping fire giant to walk past it without waking it rather than fighting it).

If you want to allow people to have fun in town or anything like that, use every time a character talks to anyone for any reason as a chance for roleplaying. In the very first campaign I was in, the DM allowed us to haggle with shop owners. It became a running gag that one friend of mine had no ranks in diplomacy and anytime he tried to use it while haggling he rolled a 1 on the die. This lead to various shopkeepers banning him from their stores. It wasn't great in game because other people had to shop for him, but everyone at the table got a laugh out of it.

As for the craft problem. You could say that the person only works on it during down time, and make it take longer to create the item, or something like that in order to keep the entire party from sitting around doing nothing for a month in-game. The PHB has information on doing craft checks according to a day of work as opposed to a week of work so you could use that as a starting point. Trying to cut down on the dice rolling might be a little harder to do. You also need to decide how time effects your campaign world. Are they on a mission that has to be completed in a certain amount of time? If so, how much time can they afford to waste before they are too far off track to succeed?

 

[Pergentile]

Just because a person posts very little, doesn't mean you should try to add extra meaning to what they say. Sometimes advice of a single word can be better then a paragraph of explanation.

If you willingly add 10 to the DC of an item, it is considered fast crafting, and allows you to craft items much more quickly assuming you have a high enough rank in the Skill. One can also add 20 to the DC if they are very confident. There are also so many ways to boost a skill, that needing a home-brew rule to allow players to 'take 10' is moot. Increase your score in that skill by 9, and suddenly even a roll of 1 becomes a 10.

Increasing the DC will either cause the player to mess up enough to realize that sometimes, the result is worth the time you put into it. Failing their craft check gives them a serious penalty for attempting to rush things that aren't meant to be rushed.
Besides that though, the juicy part of crafting is the high risk/high reward aspect of it. A player can quickly craft something that would normally be unavailable to him because of the amount of wealth he has, but he can also ruin the wealth he does have. To change the skill as you have done is nearly the same as flat out removing it, with a bit of a facade to cover it up.

In the end though, I really don't see how Craft checks would need to be speeded up. You simply have the Craft skill printed out on a page for quick reference, then just rapid-fire the roles until its finished or you no longer have the funds for it. There is no reason a player can't make a month of roles at the END of that month in town, all at once, to keep it from interrupting other things in your campaign.

Edit: Dm says "You have flooded the market with so much salt, that it is now almost worthless. You also produced such a mass of Iron, but in a country abundant with mines rich in Iron, it is almost worthless, as the cost of transporting it would outweight the gain from selling it."
This is what we call creative/improvising DMing, where you control the situation and variables using tools available to only you, that your players have absolutely no say in. To keep a player from Metagaming this idea, say that if he wants his character to think of "creative uses" for his spells, he will have to devote one hour each night to "theorizing and thought", and would have to make Intelligence checks each night, and would not think of the "Flesh to Salt on a cow" idea until he managed to pass a DC of 25 or 30.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Edit: Dm says "You have flooded the market with so much salt, that it is now almost worthless. You also produced such a mass of Iron, but in a country abundant with mines rich in Iron, it is almost worthless, as the cost of transporting it would outweight the gain from selling it."
This is what we call creative/improvising DMing, where you control the situation and variables using tools available to only you, that your players have absolutely no say in. To keep a player from Metagaming this idea, say that if he wants his character to think of "creative uses" for his spells, he will have to devote one hour each night to "theorizing and thought", and would have to make Intelligence checks each night, and would not think of the "Flesh to Salt on a cow" idea until he managed to pass a DC of 25 or 30.

In my game (which is fantasy, though not D&D), if players did that, they'd probably have assassins working for the nation tracking them down. In a D&D world, they might find themselves on the wrong end of a "scry and nuke" scenario by the nations archmage and it's strongest warriors.

It's not to discourage creative juices, but rather to simulate actual consequences and discourage blatant system abuse. For example, nations that had rich iron mines would probably make it a prime export to other nations, which means it's a huge source of wealth for them. To have a small group of people attempt to ruin their economy is almost certainly seen as treasonous. Treason is, normally, punishable by death. As they are powerful mages, using an "underhanded" tactic, such as "scry and fry" is probably seen as a legitimate plan by the nation.

Back to the OP: I've overhauled the Craft skill myself, but I don't think you'd like it much, as I changed it to reflect a somewhat more realistic version. You're looking to streamline Craft, which is a great goal. I'd say, don't listen to the people on this thread if they aren't productively adding to that goal.

Try out your model. Nothing screams abuse to me in it. It's more gamist than simulationist, but the normal Craft skill in D&D is gamist, so it's fine. If you and your players like it, great! The game is supposed to be about fun, and you and your fellow players should play what you like

 

[heromedel]

JamesonCourage I am interested in how you over hauled the craft skill do you have it typed up or maybe a link to it.

I do like realistic and simulationist as well, despite this current attempt at stream lining. ((To tell you the truth I sometimes partly forget dnd is suppose to be epic as we tend to treat more like a world or life simulator with fantasy and magic and monsters and such.)

I love hearing about new takes on things and house rules.

Edit: I like the ideas of the market being flooded and also the nation responding to disrupted economics. At least I imagine that when a pc gets gold from a dungeon and floods the market it probably works as a nice stimulus but then what if it caused inflation? lol

 

[JamesonCourage]

JamesonCourage I am interested in how you over hauled the craft skill do you have it typed up or maybe a link to it.

Let's see if it looks alright. I have a couple tables, so it may not translate well...

Yeah, the tables really mess it up. I have it all typed up (I've created my own game, modeled after 3.x, but heavily modified), since I type all of the pieces of the game up. It just won't translate to this board without some major work making a table on here.

It's more complicated than 3.x though, so you may not like it anyways. It takes things like size of the item into account, the DC of the object, potentially needing more workers for larger objects, etc.

 

[Empirate]

I recommend simply closing your eyes to the inconsistencies involved with magical economies. It isn't worth the time and headache necessary to come up with a functional economic system. Not as long as Flesh to Salt or Wall of Iron or Minor Creation and Fabricate are around. Not as long as spell storing crossbow bolts can store 50 spells, while a spell storing longsword can store 1 spell, for the same price. Not as long as a masterwork dagger sells for more than its own weight in gold. Not as long as a masterwork quarterstaff is twice as expensive as a masterwork greatsword. Not as long as buying a ladder, breaking it up into two poles, and selling these, turns a profit.
You'll probably enjoy a more interesting and less migraine-prone game if you just set about saving the world, forget about the economy, and rely on a gentlemen's agreement with your resident arcanist, than if you try to come up with in-game reasons for Wall of Iron not netting the money it "should".

Another solution, which results in the same thing, would be a little more heavy-handed: "Magically created material does not sell. Ever. For no reason except everybody's sanity."

Finally, if you really want to explore the depths of a magical economy, I'd recommend Frank and K's ideas about a Wish-based economy.

 

[heromedel]

Well there is a great article, in my opinion, that basically explains why only about 5-10 percent of the population could even make it too about 4-5th level and each level there after would be more and more super-human

The current campaign I am running is a typical dnd/pathfinder fantasy world but the next one I am going to assume even a +1 magical weapon would be legendary and few people if any would have access to spells like wall of iron. This would of course mean that things like wizard guilds would either not exist or be rare and powerful.

Basically if you assume every city has a guild and every guild has a high level wizard in charge and many, many members then yeah the economy is going to be strange indeed.

Below is the link to the article

The Alexandrian Blog Archive D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations

 

[Empirate]

The Alexandrian does a lot of good stuff, I agree. And if you play a campaign in a low-power, low-magic world, your economy can probably be just normal. However, even in that case I recommend a gentlemen's agreement not to break it, or even a hard-and-fast "can't do" rule from you.

 

[jefgorbach]

Sorry, didnt mean to start a flame-war and fully agree magic can easily screw up the local economy regardless of level ... because even first-level spells can have unforeseen consequences if you choose to explore them, but its normally ignored for the same reason the sudden presence of PCs whose personal wealth easily exceeds the local economy is.

My intent wasn't that Crafting is pointless/shouldn't occur, but rather its akin to real-world economics. Sure, someone CAN go to the local fabric store and sew their own clothing for far less than half of what the major department stores charge, but how many do so because its simply easier/faster to purchase it ... unless they want nonstandard features like special pockets for passports, MP3 players with cord-lines, etc.

 

[PoorHobo]

I would never allow a player too assume or try to convert that instantly into profit. Seeing as how you can usually only sell at 1/2 base price and I could also throw in sales tax or something too keep this mechanic for production and not profit if I needed or wanted too.

So, what is your opinion of this mechanic?

First off I don't think it's a bad idea to let players try and sell it for profit, spending 1 week of in-game time to get 20 gold is so lackluster and below the capabilities of a even a 1st level character I wouldn't bother.

As for my opinion? I dislike it. I like it more than the standard system but thats like saying I prefer splinters to a stub toe, they both are painful and I could do without both.

Skill points are valuable. Putting them into a skill that is only going to save you 20 gp a weak is throwing them away, even for rogues. As long as a crafting skill is a time for silver exchange, I'll dislike it.

Were I ever to use a crafting skill in 3.x it would have to be meaningful and scale with the effort and cost of putting points into it. As you've pointed out any commoner can have a +8 to a crafting skill. I'd start by brainstorming some ideas that something with an inhuman level of crafting can do. What does a character with 20 ranks in a craft skill, bolstered magic items, a supernatural ability score, and feats actually capable of? I think being able to make a mundane sword faster and for a few less GP is utterly lame for someone (or thing) of that skill.