Fixing Grab, Bull Rush, and Endurance

[Arlough]

I have been reviewing skills as preparation to switching my group to The Angry DM’s Key Ability Scores Can Suck It.
I’ll quickly sum it up for those of you who have not yet read the article. The premise is simple, a player describes how he or she is doing something, and the DM determines what skill/ability score combo is most appropriate.

Example: In the current system, Thievery training + Dexterity modifier = Pick Pockets + Open Locks + Disable Device + etc.
But with the other system, if you are trying to pick someone’s pocket, then the traditional Thievery/Dexterity combo is optimal (Thievery training + Dexterity modifier = Pick Pockets), but if you are trying to open a puzzle-box, then Thievery/Intelligence would be more appropriate (Thievery training + Intelligence modifier = open overly complex puzzle box thing.)​

I digress. My point was, while reviewing skills and thinking about what each skill means or represents, I realized that another one of my problems can be solved as a skill.
I don’t like the Grab mechanic, as it becomes nearly useless as you move away from 1st level. Same with Bull Rush. With MP2, they helped it a little with the new fighter build, but not enough. They just made it suck a little less, so that it would at least be useful in very rare situations (assuming you followed a specific build) as opposed to never. (as I wax hyperbolic)
But what if Grab and Bull Rush were Athletics check vs. Fort instead of an unassisted STR vs Fort? It would make it marginally more powerful as it would scale more in total than defensive bonuses, and it could scale faster than those bonuses, but it also is a standard action attack that deals no damage. Also, breaking free of a grab is not a monumental task, especially with “aid another” bonuses. Ironically, it was Grab that they lauded as "the big problem we solved" in the 4e pre-release media. Check at 2:26 and 0:15

And along those same lines, what could we do with endurance to make it less useless (Seriously, has anyone had a use for endurance? Any situation that requires it is such that the whole damn party needs it or they fail as a party.)
I was thinking that you could use endurance to reduce forced movement or elemental damage as an immediate action.
Thoughts

 

[Rune]

I like your grab/bull rush rule, but I'd like to point out that Endurance is good to have if your DM throws a lot of diseases at the party (or uses an injury/disease track house-rule).

 

[Arlough]

Which leads to either character death or major metagaming. I am not against it, but it is a skill that if the whole party doesn't have it, the whole party suffers.

The problem skills are:

• Endurance - if you have an obstacle of any sort that requires endurance, and you have a, say, wizard in the party, then you have to just find another way there.
• Stealth - same issue as endurance
• Perception - opposite issue. If you have one character in the party with good perception, the party is good to go. If you have one wisdom character who has focused on perception, you will never again have any way of ambushing the party without going to extremes.
• Insight - like perception, but a bit less so.

All four are problematic, but endurance sticks out like a sore thumb.

Also, along the disease thought path (sorry, but I had to) if one person focuses on Heal, you no longer have to worry about Endurance, at least for the rest of the party. So put your Con/Wis fighter up to focusing in Healing and Endurance, and disease is never again an issue.

P.S. I am interested in this injury/disease track houserule. Do you have it documented somewhere that I can take a look? Or, if not, would you mind starting a thread with it so it can be reviewed and discussed?

 

[Rune]

Which leads to either character death or major metagaming. I am not against it, but it is a skill that if the whole party doesn't have it, the whole party suffers.

The problem skills are:

• Endurance - if you have an obstacle of any sort that requires endurance, and you have a, say, wizard in the party, then you have to just find another way there.
• Stealth - same issue as endurance
• Perception - opposite issue. If you have one character in the party with good perception, the party is good to go. If you have one wisdom character who has focused on perception, you will never again have any way of ambushing the party without going to extremes.
• Insight - like perception, but a bit less so.
  All four are problematic, but endurance sticks out like a sore thumb.
  
  Also, along the disease thought path (sorry, but I had to) if one person focuses on Heal, you no longer have to worry about Endurance, at least for the rest of the party. So put your Con/Wis fighter up to focusing in Healing and Endurance, and disease is never again an issue.

• 
  
  I don't disagree with any of this.
  
  

  P.S. I am interested in this injury/disease track houserule. Do you have it documented somewhere that I can take a look? Or, if not, would you mind starting a thread with it so it can be reviewed and discussed?

  
  I don't know the specifics, but I know there are a few people on these boards who use such a house-rule. I've currently let my ENworld subscription lapse, so I can't do a search, I'm afraid.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I think the revised rule for Grab and Bull-rush might work, but I don't want the power to become an auto-hit, which could be possible in some cases. But yes, the whole Grapple mechanic needs to be redone, something along the lines of 'Grappling for Dummies' {by Morrus }

As to your original thought, technically that is how the rules read. You can use a skill based on any stat if it makes sense. I often allow Thievery checks based on Intelligence for 'casing a joint' or similar noggin work. I also allow Athletics checks with Intelligence for the 'can I climb that?'

However, due to the hard coding of skill to stat on the character sheet it is harder for players to remember to do that.


The injury house rule referred to is simply using the disease track to show long term injuries. The version I have written down somewhere is that if you go below 0 hit points or get hit for over your bloodied value in one hit you get 'wounded' using a disease track equal to the opponents level. Each wound reduces the max healing surges you can have. You have to rest/avoid strenuous activity in order to make an endurance check at the start of the next day.
If you suffer a critical hit, you can elect to take a wound in order to change the wound into a normal hit.

 

[italianranma]

I understand the desire to make Grab and Bull-Rush more open to everyone, but I think that there are already enough powers that that force or restrict movement that it's a non-issue. For me, Grab and Bull-Rush are there for when I'm desperate or the opportunity is too good to pass up, and my character personally doesn't have and powers remaining that let me do either of those options. It's a high risk endeavor so I'm only going to use them in high reward situations.

The only house rule I have to forced movement of any kind is what I call "Slamming" If you use forced movement to put a creature into blocked terrain (like a pillar or wall, or anything reasonably solid) both the creature and the terrain take damage. The damage is based off of the obstacle in question (getting slammed into stone hurts more than getting slammed into wood), the DMG's table of damage expressions, and DM Fiat.

The intent behind that house rule is to add the cinematic experience of throwing your enemies through things (or what happens more often is the fighter getting thrown through something by the elite brute). The damage happens to the obstacle too because it's thematic, and also it helps change the battlefield mid-fight which makes for better encounters IMO. What I'm careful to do is to not make it the best choice every time: I make sure it never deals more damage than powers that create zones or dangerous terrain do (for the given level of the PCs). For example 1d6 damage is common at level 1 for me.