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Fixing Metamagic?

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Malcer said:
I started thinking about metamagic rods. Compared to the feats, they are so much more powerful and ridiculously cheap.

You are absolutely right there! My Sorcerer, when 8th level, was able to obtain a rod of lesser maximisation. What an incredible power house that was! Three 48point fireballs a day was just too incredible. It seems to me that the lesser and medium metamagic rods need to be much more expensive and the greater ones I'll just be disallowing entirely - they would be too good at any price if they allow a spell to be cast of greater than 9th level (effectively).

Cheers
 

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ConcreteBuddha

First Post
What if metamagic feats don't take up a higher level slot, instead they do damage to the caster?

Perhaps metamagic is a type of "overchanneling" in which casters sacrifice hps for increased magical power. As per this chart:

+1 (silent spell) = (caster level)/4 hps
+2 (empower spell) = (caster level)/2 hps
+3 (maximize spell) = (caster level) hps
+4 (quicken spell) = 2*(caster level) hps


At 20th level, this would translate into 5, 10, 20, 40 hps, respectively. The reason it is based on your caster level is because then it scales with level.
 

Hjorimir

Adventurer
I guess I will chime in and say I think that metamagics are already very powerful and wouldn't advocate making them more so.

Example, at 10th level would you rather cast a 10d6 Cone of Cold or 15d6 Empowered Fireball? Baring fire resistant monsters, I'd be going with the 15d6 Fireball (yes I know you don't roll 15d6 and really just multiply by 1.5, but I'm just making an illustration).

It has been my group’s experience that metamagics are the path to real power for a caster.
 

Centaur

First Post
Plane Sailing said:
I ignore epic issues in any of my considerations, it just isn't worth thinking about (if any PCs in my game ever get to 20th+ level I'll create my own epic rules rather than use the dogs breakfast of the ELH. All IMO of course :)

Sir Whiskers: The issue for me is not rules crunch for doing an x/day limitation, but rather a descriptive reason for such a limitation. Cleave doesn't have a limit per day, nor do most feats. Stunning fist does, but that seems a silliness in the feat - there is no reason given why it could only be used a limited number of times per day. (yes, I know, it is for "balance" purposes. To my mind an x/day limitation is a blunt instrument for balancing an ability and suggests that someone couldn't think of anything better. I want something better ;))

Cheers

I would have to say that I agree with you, I too would like something better. One Idea that I have toyed with is to introduce some sort of "Personal Cost". This could be represented by using Hit Points equal to the mod level of the metamagic feat (2x that etc.). Just make sure that you specify that this damage can only be healed by rest time, not Magic or alchemy. You could call it "Spiritual Damage".

This would server to provide a darker, more gritty form of magic to your world and while the caster can use the metamagic feats at will, he needs to think twice abour them before using them a lot.....

thoughts?
 


UltimaGabe

First Post
I'm pretty sure we can all agree that Metamagic feats, as they are, suck. The all carry several hefty costs to any caster that takes them (spending several feats, increased spell levels) and another hefty cost for certain casters (increased casting time for Sorcerers and Bards). They carry several costs, with relatively low benefits (few people will choose an Empower Magic Missile over a Fireball or Lightning Bolt, or a Maximized Fireball over a Disintegrate or Circle of Death). However, to do away with any of their costs would make them far TOO powerful.

Frankly, I think the increased casting time for Sorcerers and Bards is a load of crap. None of my games have such a rule.

The increased spell levels seem to be a necessity to keep balance... to lower them, let alone get rid of them entirely, would unbalance the game and make spellcasters all uniform in their uses (if you even lowered the costs by 1, every single spell would thus be Silenced and/or Stilled, and almost every spell would end up being Empowered due to the low +1 level cost). Any sort of daily limit, although possibly limiting the power, wouldn't really make sense in-game and could end up being even more tiresome and annoying than the costs as it is (for example, I went through City of the Spider Queen last year with some friends, most of which were spellcasters... at many points, they were infiltrating the bad guys' city, and there were times when every other spell they'd cast would be Silenced and Stilled for fear of being discovered- in a case like that, they would much rather have given up a spell level or two rather than have a daily limit). So taking away increased spell levels would cause more problems than it would solve.

Then, of course, there's the feat cost. Now that I think about it... what if there were no feat cost? Or, at least, a more limited number? Such as you simply took one "Metamagic Ability" feat, and from that point on, you could use any Metamagic feat at will, as long as you could spare the spell levels? It may seem powerful... but if enough people are complaining about the spell level cost, can you really see more people using Metamagic spells than already do, just because there's only the cost of one feat? Also, if Metamagic feats were more accessable, I can definitely see more fun and more use coming out of them. After all, do we really need to spend four or five feats we're never gonna use? What's wrong with one feat you're never gonna use that encompasses all the others?
 

UltimaGabe

First Post
Hjorimir said:
Example, at 10th level would you rather cast a 10d6 Cone of Cold or 15d6 Empowered Fireball? Baring fire resistant monsters, I'd be going with the 15d6 Fireball (yes I know you don't roll 15d6 and really just multiply by 1.5, but I'm just making an illustration).

That's a bad example, as Cone of Cold has always been viewed as a low-power spell for its level.

Here's another example: Which would you rather cast- an Empowered Magic Missile, or a Fireball? A Maximized Lightning Bolt, or a Chain Lightning? A Maximized, Empowered, Silent Fireball or a Meteor Swarm?

In some cases, it would be a definite advantage to use Metamagic feats... in most other cases, there's no benefit whatsoever. Considering the cost, it just isn't worth it.
 

ConcreteBuddha

First Post
Centaur said:
Opps, didn't read ConcreteBuddha's post before posting.

Same Idea, different method of application!


The reason why I base the hps lost on caster level is because at L40, taking 8hps in damage (2x4 for a quicken spell), is not really a hindrance. Whereas taking 80 hps in damage just might be.

The cool part about this is that casters don't always have to cast a spell at their maximum caster level. So if a L40 cleric casts a quickened cure serious wounds, he'd only want to be treated as a 20th level caster.
 

Centaur

First Post
ConcreteBuddha said:
The reason why I base the hps lost on caster level is because at L40, taking 8hps in damage (2x4 for a quicken spell), is not really a hindrance. Whereas taking 80 hps in damage just might be.

The cool part about this is that casters don't always have to cast a spell at their maximum caster level. So if a L40 cleric casts a quickened cure serious wounds, he'd only want to be treated as a 20th level caster.

I think that scaling the damage taken might be a good idea, but I don't like your scale. On average, a L40 Wizard is going to have 100 hp (+con bonus). This means, he may be able to get off 1 maybe 2 or even three quickened spells before his is dead or at risk of it.

A high level caster is going to have more spells and therefore going to cast more. If he uses his metamagic alot, even without scalling for level, he's going to run out of HPs fairly quickly.

Of course, Clerics with an average of 4.5/lvl instead of 2.5/lvl for wizards will have much more hitpoints (180 + con bonus at L40) so they can metagic a few more spells, but then again, they tend to fight physical a little more often....

Based on this, I don't think scaling is nessecary, a careless Caster will take care of himself, literaly...
 

ConcreteBuddha

First Post
You are not taking into account that the Con bonus at L40 is more than your actual hps from class levels.

A level 40 character has 13,600,000gp

Consitution
base 14
inherent 5
enhancement 12

That is a Con of 31, modifier of 10, or 400 hps at level 40.

I think they can stand to blow 80 hps on a quickened L9 spell. Especially since the cleric is gonna blow 80 hps to give me a quickened mass heal.
 

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