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Fixing Metamagic?

Centaur

First Post
ConcreteBuddha said:
You are not taking into account that the Con bonus at L40 is more than your actual hps from class levels.

A level 40 character has 13,600,000gp

Consitution
base 14
inherent 5
enhancement 12

That is a Con of 31, modifier of 10, or 400 hps at level 40.

I think they can stand to blow 80 hps on a quickened L9 spell. Especially since the cleric is gonna blow 80 hps to give me a quickened mass heal.

True, but thats still only 5 quickend spells in a day (or similar level mod) which I think would be a low number for a character of that level.

Of course, L40 is a little bit beyond extream for most of the games that I play in. I think it's been over 15 years since I was in a game that had characters higher than 12th level... therefore my thoughts are aimed a little lower.

12th level wizard with a totla con bonus of +3/lvl will have on average 66 HP.
His Quicken is going to cost him 24 hp. He's gonna be able to get off 2 (the third will likely kill him) in a day/fight. If he wants to use any other metamagic during the day/fight, he's pretty much limited to one quickened spell....

If you simply use 2*(Level Mod) then the Quickened spell costs 8 HPs. That means that the 12th level wizard above can launch 8 such spells while the L40 guy you mentioned could launch 50+. Of course at 40th level, he should be scary.

The other thing I'm not clear on however that may make a difference in this discussion is: Does your system allow for those points to be healed by magical healing? Your last post seemed to indicate that it does. If so, then your system may work as it would limit the uses per fight, but not per day! In my system, it must be healed by normal rest at the normal rates...
 

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ConcreteBuddha

First Post
Yes, I am thinking that the damage can be healed. Hence why my costs are so high.


If you simply use 2*(Level Mod) then the Quickened spell costs 8 HPs. That means that the 12th level wizard above can launch 8 such spells

I think 8 quickened spells of any level is overpowered for level 12.
 


Kyamsil

First Post
I am currently on the process of reading Unearthed Arcana and selecting the rules variant to apply to my ongoing FR campaign.

There are 2 systems of handling spontaneous metamagic on the book, and I think that combining the two of them can do the trick. This is the way I will handle it:

Every spellcaster can apply their known metamagic feats "on the fly" without longer casting times or using higher level slots. However, you can't cast a spell of higher level than you would be able to (so no maximized fireball for a 9th level caster).

Each time you learn a metamagic feat you can apply it "freely" 3/day. Once you have used it 3 times, each additional use of the feat forces you to "burn" a number of spells/spells slots of the same or higher level equal to the level modifier of the metamagic feat. So for example, a caster that has cast 3 silent spells on a day and wants to cast a 4th level spell applying silent spell has to "burn" an extra 4th or higher spell to power it. A 12th level wizard wanting to maximize a fireball once he has already maximized 3 other spells on the same day has to burn 3 3rd or higher spell slots.

A spellcaster can learn a metamagic feat more than once, gaining 3 extra "free" uses per day of it. Of course, by the way it works, metamagic feats of +0 level can be used an unlimited number of times per day (3 "free" uses and burn 0 extra spell slots of the same level or higher), which is reasonable as a spellcaster can cast all his spells modified by a +0 level metamagic anyway.

This combined way of handling it means that you have a limit to the number of times you can apply metamagic. The 3 daily uses means that every spellcaster can benefit from their feats somewhat, but once those uses are spent, it becomes a lot more expensive to continue benefiting from them (specially for +2 or higher metamagic feats) as they would burn excessive energy. Also, the system allows you to continue using the 3.0 rules that let you apply a metamagic feat more than once when applicable. You would have to apply the modifier to effective level multiple times to see if you can cast a spell of that increased level and would use more than one daily use of your feat. So if at 17th level you want to empower a firebal thrice, so be it, but be prepared to pay through the nose for any other empowered spell you want to cast.
 

glass

(he, him)
UltimaGabe said:
The increased spell levels seem to be a necessity to keep balance... to lower them, let alone get rid of them entirely, would unbalance the game and make spellcasters all uniform in their uses (if you even lowered the costs by 1, every single spell would thus be Silenced and/or Stilled, and almost every spell would end up being Empowered due to the low +1 level cost).

But this wouldn't happen under PS's original system. True, a wizard could silent still empower a spell 4 levels lower than his maximum, but he might want to quicken it instead. And what if the spell he wants to cast is only one level below his maximum? Silent of Still, but not both.

Essentially, it becomes a case of not whether but which.

I think certain feats would be problematic in this system, which is why I made the suggestions I made for modifications above, but the idea has merit.


glass.
 

jeffh

Adventurer
Just to throw my oar in, here are the wordings that will be used for a few metamagic feats in my next game. Note that all casters will use sorcerer-style casting (no preparation, or non-Vancian, Arcana Unearthed style preparation, I haven't decided which yet) and that metamagic Feats don't increase casting time except as specifically noted in the descriptions of these Feats.

Still Spell

You may cast a spell that would normally have somatic components without them, allowing you to cast while bound, in heavy armor (with no spell failure chance), etc. You may do this once per day with no special conditions or additional cost. If you need to do this more than once per day, you may do so by any of the following methods:
1. Laden the spell
2. Use a spell slot one level higher than you would normally require.
3. Increase the casting time to one minute per phase the spell would normally require. Spells with casting times that are not measured in phases cannot be cast using this option.

(Notice that in this case, the one free use per day can be applied to a spell of the highest level you can cast. Also, I like the third option because it introduces something vaguely like ritual magic with only minimal new rules overhead. I may drop the phase system it refers to - if I keep it, it would mean the overwhelming majority of spells would take five minutes if you used this option, as five phases = one standard action for most purposes.)

Equivalent of Quicken Spell:

You may cast a spell whose casting time is normally 6 phases or less as a free action. You may do this once per day with no special conditions or additional cost, provided the spell you are so modifying is not of the four highest levels you can cast. If you need to do this more than once per day or to a spell of one of the four highest levels you can cast, you may do so by either of the following methods:
1. Laden the spell
2. Use a spell slot four levels higher than you would normally require. (Obviously this doesn't work for spells that are already of your four highest levels).

(Notice that where the "slot requirement" in the normal rules is two or more levels higher, I *do* build that limitation into the one free use per day. Also, this one has no option 3 since that would defeat the whole purpose of this Feat!)

And the one that works completley differently from the rest, Heighten Spell:

When you cast a spell using a spell slot of a higher level than necessary (except for the purpose of paying for metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell), the spell is treated as though it were of the higher level for all purposes. Its saving throw DC increases, and effects such as Globe of Invulnerability which care about the spell level treat it as a spell of the higher level.

Though the wording is a little awkward, this is actually something of a simplification over the PH version.

Am I taking "options, not restrictions" too far? I often worry about that when it comes to my variants - some players seem to feel overwhelmed by the number of choices I give them, sometimes.
 

Liquidsabre

Explorer
Just thought I'd throw in my experiences with the Spontaneous Metamagic system from UA. I've been running one campaign (with a Sorcerer) and playing in another with the system (with a Wizard). By far the system has exceeded everyone's expectations. So many in our group (including myself at first) thought that making metamagic use 3/day with no spell level change was way too powerful but after seeing it's use in games 2/week since UA came out we've never seen a more balanced and simple system to handle metamagic. Previously (with core metamagic) metamagic feats were rarely taken or considered most of the time and when they were only the +0/+1 slot metamagic feats were taken. Gameplay with Spontaneous Metamagic has ranged from 6-10th in the game I run and 2-6th in the campaign I play in (over the course of the last 5 months).

Originally we were concerned about stealing some thunder from sorcerers, what with wizards too being able to spontaneously metamagic, but now Sorcerer's can Quicken Spell and cast their metamagics as Std actions and not full round actions. 3/day is quite limiting (though multiple feats can be taken for increased daily use), on the other hand the ability to metamagic any spell on the fly is quite versatile. We've found the combination both enjoyable and balanced in our games. Metamagic slots are still used as requirements to cast the spells so a caster's highest level spells can't be metamagic'd and only until higher levels are the larger slotted metamagics (+3/+4) available for use.

Thoguht I'd share our group's experience with the Spontaneous Metamagic system (about the only use I've gotten from the book though) for ease of use with 3.x D&D and balanced. And if anyone has any questions feel free to fire away, there's been alot covered (ahem, and a few different characters tried out) in the last 5 months and there's no way for me to relate all of it.

Cheers!
 

ARandomGod

First Post
Liquidsabre said:
Just thought I'd throw in my experiences with the Spontaneous Metamagic system from UA. I've been running one campaign (with a Sorcerer) and playing in another with the system (with a Wizard). By far the system has exceeded everyone's expectations. So many in our group (including myself at first) thought that making metamagic use 3/day with no spell level change was way too powerful but after seeing it's use in games 2/week since UA came out we've never seen a more balanced and simple system to handle metamagic. Previously (with core metamagic) metamagic feats were rarely taken or considered most of the time and when they were only the +0/+1 slot metamagic feats were taken. Gameplay with Spontaneous Metamagic has ranged from 6-10th in the game I run and 2-6th in the campaign I play in (over the course of the last 5 months).

Originally we were concerned about stealing some thunder from sorcerers, what with wizards too being able to spontaneously metamagic, but now Sorcerer's can Quicken Spell and cast their metamagics as Std actions and not full round actions. 3/day is quite limiting (though multiple feats can be taken for increased daily use), on the other hand the ability to metamagic any spell on the fly is quite versatile. We've found the combination both enjoyable and balanced in our games. Metamagic slots are still used as requirements to cast the spells so a caster's highest level spells can't be metamagic'd and only until higher levels are the larger slotted metamagics (+3/+4) available for use.

Thoguht I'd share our group's experience with the Spontaneous Metamagic system (about the only use I've gotten from the book though) for ease of use with 3.x D&D and balanced. And if anyone has any questions feel free to fire away, there's been alot covered (ahem, and a few different characters tried out) in the last 5 months and there's no way for me to relate all of it.

Cheers!

Actually, that does sound like it fixes issues I have with metamagic for non-spontaneous casters... And, since (see above) I believe that metamagic (in it’s current incarnation) is only good for spontaneous casters, I don't see why making it viable for non-spontaneous casters is really an issue.

On the other hand, I do see that using this and only this takes away from one thing that makes metamagic really cool for spontaneous casters. Now, I haven't read up on it, so do tell me...

Can you use this method on combination with "normal" metamagic applications? IE, sometimes cast without level adjustments (3/day) and other times adjust the spell? Because I personally see the largest benefit from metamagic spells is that it's pretty much the only way spontaneous casters have to "learn" new spells known. Each time a spontaneous spell-caster learns a metamagic feat he's essentially doubled his spells known, and increased his flexibility. So if this 3/day non-adjusted use of metamagic isn’t combined with the ability to use the same with feat adjusted levels, then it does slightly take away from the power of the feat for the sorc.
(Although I still think that, given a choice between the two, most would take this type rather than the normal kind.)
 

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