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Fixing the Bow Mechanics

Doc_Subtlety

First Post
Trust me, archers aren't overpowered compared to melee types. I had a 12th level Order of the Bow Initiate in my game, and things ran smoothly enough. Just gotta remember and enforce all the things that screw them over: ammo limits, Sunder attempts, poor visibility...that kind of thing.

If anything needs house ruling, it's the Greater Magic Weapon spell. I'm be tempted to drop the duration on that to 10 minutes per level, maybe even less.
 

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Crothian

First Post
Cloudgatherer said:


Such as? Most penalities can be ignored through either tactics or feats.

-4 for firing into melee -> Precise Shot
AoO for firing a bow -> move (5 ft or more)

As a last resort, one can always drop the bow and draw a sword and enter melee (Quick Draw).

Meanwhile, the bow user gets (up to) +10/+10 to attacks and damage, double what a melee character can get. Plus bows get up to +4 strength mod for damage...

And a sword through can get the Throw Anything feat. The bow and arrow guy has limited amunition, attacking with a sword can be done as often as you like. THe sword guy can get up to +5/+5 magically, but can use expertise to increase AC, Power Attack to increase damage, and is not limited to how high his strength damage can get. Melee weapons easily can do more base damage as well. Plus you can attack two handed to get even more damage, or use a shiled to get a higher AC, or fight with 2 weapons to get mor eattacks, plus there are more melee feats then ranged feats to take advantage of.

But argueing melee verse Range is pointless, because I doubt I can convince, and since we are in House Rules it's the place to talk about alternative option. So, I'll reiterate that I think your rules are pretty good.
 

Rackhir

Explorer
Ah, yes here we go again. So once more.

Rackhir's Standard Answer to Why Bow and Arrow Bonus Stacking is Not a Bad Thing (c)

Yes, the ability to stack the damage and to hit bonuses is a nice feature, but let's look at some of the things you give up or can't do in exchange for that.

1) Numerous feat and prestige class skills that do NOT apply and do not have any counterparts in applicable Missile feats.

Lets look at one in particular for a moment, Power attack.

I had a 12th level archer character, who had a buffed attack bonus of 22/22/17/12. So basically he did not miss against most opponents except on an 1. A melee character with Power Attack (one of THE basic feats for any melee combat characters) can convert that excess attack bonus into damage with Power Attack. That can easily translate into another 5 points of damage per hit or more depending on how lucky you are feeling. I pretty much stopped looking for ways to increase his attack bonus as a result and was scrounging for ways to increase his damage. There aren't a lot out there.

Whirlwind attack, Cleave/Great Cleave, Combat Reflexes (multiple AoOs) all do not work with missile weapons and have no counterpart in feats for missile weapons (though there is one ability for Arcane Archers that gives an attack against multiple opponents). There are many, many more.

Spring Attack grants immunity to AoOs while doing the move-attack-move combo. Shot on the Run does not.

Missile weapons do not threaten an area. This means numerous feats involving AoOs are useless since you don't threaten opponents.

Unless you are an Order of the Bow Initiate, you draw an AoO whenever you fire the bow within the threat range of an enemy.

2) Strength bonuses cap out at +4 on Mighty Composite bows. For melee weapons there is no cap and a Two-handed-sword user gets a x1.5 Str bonus multiplier. On a 12th level character you could easily see a strength of up to about 30 when fully buffed (22 str, barbarian raging with bulls strength on), for a two handed weapon str damage bonus of +15. And if you have a strength bow you still need two high stats (str+dex) instead of one for the melee guy.

3) Many of the bonuses to hit and damage for missile weapons do not apply at ranges greater than 30'. By some strange coincidence, this is also a standard move for most creatures. In other words, an archer at optimal range is always going to be within attack range of most creatures.

4) Rate of fire - When my archer was hasted he was geting 5 attacks a round. That means he could empty a single quiver of arrows in 4 rounds or use up a casting of GMW (50 arrows) in 10 rounds of combat (or in other words 1 to 2 combats).

5) Feats required - If you want to have a character who is decent at being an archer, you need a minimum of about 3 feats - Precise Shot, Point blank Shot, Rapid Shot. No problem if you are a fighter, if you're a paladin, ranger, barbarian. You've got some tough choices.

I could go on, for example there are a number of prestige classes which are either useless (melee oriented abilities) or effectively can't be taken by archery oriented characters.

With regards to GMW, buffing the bow and the arrows is two 3rd level spells a day (out of maybe 5-6) and if you don't have the mage or cleric (or couldn't talk them into casting it for you that day) you are helpless against DR creatures. Furthermore you don't get the "worst case scenario" +5 GMW until you are hitting 15th level and a +10 total bonus isn't that big a deal when you are hitting those levels. Your melee fighters will also be forcing massive damage checks on crits if they are are at all well put together. Not to mention there are melee weapons that have vastly higher crit ranges

Mind you none of this is to complain that Archers suck or got nerfed. My character was one of the most lethal and deadly characters in the campaign. But there are a LARGE number of limitations and restrictions on being an archer. Getting to stack the bonuses is NOT a hideous advantage and should not be taken away.
 
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dvvega

Explorer
In a campaign I play in, there is a 10th level archer character with +20/+20/+15 at <30feet (and most of his shots are at that range), with a damage of 1d8+11 per arrow.

He mainly loses damage at greater ranges, since his bonuses become +19/+19/+14 with 1d8+7 per arrow.

The stacking is from a +1 bow and +1 arcane archer arrows.

He's not going to run out of +1 arrows, just normal arrows, and since he carries 60 in his quiver of ehlonna, and hundreds in hi handy haversack all nicely stored in capped quivers, he's not running out.

The only other magical item he has (related to archery) are bracers of archery.

Now an equivalent fighter, with a +2 weapon would have +17/+12 to hit now add in all the possible feats, he has to hit to get the extra attacks, by using Power Attack he does increase his miss chance (all beit a little) etc.

Put them at a starting distance of 30 feet and you will see the fighter drop faster ... since the initiate draws no AOO for firing in melee either.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Crothian said:
The reason the bonuses stack is that bows either get no damage bonus or a limited amount and that they suffer range penalties.

C'mon Crothian. Any minmaxed archer worth his/her salt will have a mighty +4 bow by mid-level. As for range penalties, I don't know when was the last time I got involved in a long-range archery duel; most encounters (especially dungeon crawls) tend to take place within 2-3 range increments at most.

What you could do is just say that the enhancement bonuses from bow and arrow don't stack. It's entirely consistent with the 3E rules on bonus stacking, since the bonuses have the same type; the current situation where they do stack is actually a wart. For purpose of overcoming DR, you could either use the higher bonus (which would be more in keeping with the spirit of the rules) or the arrow's bonus (which would be more traditional).
 

corndemon

First Post
Weeble said:
Remember Legolas...

Indeed...
But not just fantasy archers. The longbow, in its heyday, was an amazingly lethal weapon. British longbowmen were the terror of countless battlefields, capable of reducing an opposing force to a fraction of its numbers before any melee took place. I think it's perfecty believable to let the bonuses stack. By the time an archer has access to +5 arrows and a +5 bow, the melee types in the party will have all kinds of combat feats to balance things out.
 

Fade

First Post
Remember that the guy with the +5 arrows is blowing 1000gp per shot. 4-5000 gp per round. Gets expensive.

Now the fact that GMW affects an entire bundle of 50 arrows can be a problem.
 

Crothian

First Post
hong said:


C'mon Crothian. Any minmaxed archer worth his/her salt will have a mighty +4 bow by mid-level. As for range penalties, I don't know when was the last time I got involved in a long-range archery duel; most encounters (especially dungeon crawls) tend to take place within 2-3 range increments at most.

Well, assuming everyone plays a min maxed archer is wrong, but most archers will get a mighty bow. But what if he's stronger then the mighty bows allow? He could easily aquire a belt of giant strength to place his strength higher then the max damage on a mighty bow.

Your right, for people who dwell in the dungeon, few long ranged encounters happen. This is controled by the DM. I'd say once every 3 or 4 sessions I get to use my bow at a long range (range incriment 5+). It's bt choice though. I see the target that far away and I try to hit him. The rest of the party would perfer to set up an ambush.

It really depends on your campaign. Right now we only have one might bow in our group, and no magical bows or arrows. We have had quite a few ranged encounters, but we purposely look for them. It's great to take out the enemy before they can get to you.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
As a DM and a the player of a midlevel archer in a RtToEE campaign, I can testify that archers can be very nasty.

On the other hand, I do not believe that archers are overpowered by the ability to stack bonusses from magical weapons and armor.

Several factors have been discussed here:

-Limitation of available strength bonusses. If the archer has 18 strength and dex, the melee fighter probably has at least a 20 strength or something is wrong with the melee fighter's construction. (Either that or someone rolled well on 4d6--if that's the case, the randomness of 4d6 which allowed the exceptionally powerful character in the first place is your problem, not stacking enhancement bonusses). It is quite likely that the fighter will be further buffed with spells like Bull's Strength, etc as well.

-Limitation of feats. As Rackhir said, Point Blank, Precise, and Rapid Shot are necessary for an archer. (Sharpshooting (Sword and Fist) is really helpful too. However, after that, there are few feats that help an archer. Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization (only within 30'), and improved critical work on bows (almost) as well as on melee weapons but power attack, cleave, great cleave, and whirlwind attack are inneffective with ranged weapons. Incorporating builder book materials, there are no ranged equivalents to the Two Weapon Fighting/Ambidexterity/Shield Expert/Improved Two Weapon Fighting/Supreme Two Weapon Fighting and Power Critical (MotW) feats. Archers are limited in their ability to improve their damage through feats.

-Limitation of Ammunition: Magic Arrows are ridiculously expensive for a consumable commodity. Greater Magic weapon also creates limited quantities of arrows. (A high level character who might expect to have access to GMW from a friendly wizard or cleric will often go through one casting in 10 combat rounds. In any dungeon crawl type campaign, they should expect to see more than 10 rounds or combat in a single day thus necessitating lots GMW spells (a melee fighter would be ridiculously deadly too if he had an empowered bull's strength (4th level and thus equivalent to GMW) and Weapon of the Deity (4th level from DotF) cast on him every couple of combats).

Of course, the Arcane Archer prestige class doesn't suffer from this limitation (as one poster noted). But that's a function of the prestige class and is not inherent in the way 3e handles archery.

-Prestige Classes. Since there are very good archer prestige classes available (Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Order of the Bow Initiate) and this problem of stacking bonusses is highlighted by the arcane archer's abilities, it is only fair to note that there are many prestige classes available which offer melee fighters similarly powerful benefits (Weapon Master, Master of Chains, Templar, Duelist, Spellsword, Bladesinger (Web-Enhancement version), Dwarven Defender, Tribal Defender, Tempest, Frenzied Beserker, Master Samurai, etc.)


A lot of this discussion has also focussed on an archer's supposed ability to gain all these bonusses in a dungeon setting without being in melee. This seems a bit wrongheaded to me.

First, while most archers can be expected to have precise shot that only cancels the penalty for firing into melee. It does not eliminate the cover which a friend in your line of fire provides to your opponent. So firing into melee should often (usually) be harder than swinging a melee weapon--even with precise shot.

Second, many archery bonusses apply only within 30 feet. Since this is within a standard move for most creatures (and it's still within charge range even for an encumbered dwarf wearing full-plate) any archer who is getting a full rate of fire (and hence not using Shoot on the Run which is a very difficult feat to get since it requires archery feats AND spring attack) is vulnerable. In the absence of an intervening character (or other force), the foe is likely to charge the archer and sunder the bow in the next round. (And that's ridiculously easy to do since a character with a bow doesn't threaten an area and consequently can't take the AoO that a sunder attempt (without the feat) usually entails. Furthermore, according to the Sage (and now the FAQ), since a bow isn't a melee weapon it counts as a held object rather than weapon and the archer isn't even allowed an opposed attack roll. To add insult to injury, bows are hardness 5 with 5 hit points and are easily sundered even by weak characters using one handed weapons (maybe slightly higher with magic but unlike melee characters, archers can't get mithril or adamantine bows to foil sunder attempts.) A smart archer can certainly draw a melee weapon as soon as a foe closes (with quickdraw perhaps) but the archer will almost certainly be less effective in melee than a character who's constructed for melee effectiveness. (If he is, then he's not constructed for peak effectiveness as an archer. . . .)

Now maybe in a dungeon crawl setting there is usually a melee character who prevents the bad guys from coming to grips with the archer but that doesn't mean this isn't a weakness. After all, melee characters usually keep the monsters off of the wizards but nobody would deny that a wizard's melee vulnerability is a serious weakness of the class.

Now, this may not convince you so I'll analyze the proposed changes (ignoring the masterwork changes).

What effect would eliminating bow/weapon enhancement bonus stacking have?

Low levels: None--characters rarely have magic bows and magic arrows at these levels. If they can afford to have both, then it's probably the high magic level of the campaign that's causing problems not the rules themselves.

Mid levels: Greater Magic Weapon could lose much of its utility. On the other hand, if most characters treat archer construction as I've seen in the past, they'll have +1 flaming shock mighty [+4] composite longbows instead of +3 bows so they're only losing +1 to hit and damage (all of the rest is elemental and wouldn't be lost under these rules).

High levels: This is when it will probably make the most difference. The archers have probably seen one or two bows sundered and are now getting +3 and +5 holy flaming bows or would regularly have their friends cast Greater Magic Weapon on both their bows and their ammunition. However, these are the levels when archers are beginning to run out of things to do. The melee fighters probably have power attack/cleave/weapon focus/weapon specialization/improved critical/power critical or spirited charge/weapon focus/improved crit/power critical or (paladins and multiclass clerics) power attack/divine might and a 22+charisma. Odds are very good that the melee fighters also have strengths of 22+ at this level (and would often have strengths as high as 26 to 30 (before raging) if they could convince the cleric and wizard to spend as many spell slots on them as they're presumed to be spending on the archers.)

Compare the following characters

12th level fighters

Bow: attacks for 1d8+17 at +27/+27/+22/+17
(12th level: +4 bow, +4 arrows, weapon focus/specialization, point blank shot, 22 dex, 18 str, Bracers of Archery)
Defensive Melee: 1d10+13 (more with power attack) at +24/+19/+14 (12th level,+4 bastard sword, weapon focus/specialization, 24 strength) with the potential for more from great cleave and/or whirwhind attack
Barbarian Melee: 2d6+19 (more from power attack) at +27/+22/+18 (30 strength while raging, +4 greatsword, weapon focus) with the potential for more attacks from cleave and great cleave
Paladin Melee: 1d8+16 (more from power attack) at +23/+18/+13 (+4 warhammer, weapon focus, power attack, divine might, 22 str, 22 cha) with the potential for more attacks from cleave.
Dual Wield Shield: 1d10+12 and 1d8+3 at +21/+16/+11 and +16/+11 (+4 bastard sword, shield of bashing, 22 str, weapon focus/spec bastard sword) with potential for more attacks from cleave. (Feats required: 1. Two Weapon Fighting, Ambidexterity, EWP: Bastard Sword, 2. WP Foc Bastard Sword, 3. Shield Expert, 4. Weapon Spec. Bastard Swd, 6. Power Attack, Cleave, 8. Greater TWF, 9, 10,12,12 open (probably, iron will, improved critical/power critical bastard sword, supreme two weapon fighting).
No Stacking Bow: 1d8+13 at +23/+23/+17/+12 (as above but bow and arrows don't stack).

4th level characters
Bow: 1d8+4 at +8/+8 (4th level, +1 bow, 16 dex, 14 str, weapon focus/specialization, point blank shot)
Melee: 1d10 +5 (+power attack) at +9 (+1 bastard sword, 16 str, weapon focus/specialization) with more attacks possible from cleave
Barbarian melee: 2d6+10 (+power attack) at +12 (+1 greatsword, 22 str (raging), weapon focus) with more attacks possible from cleave.

At high levels, the additional attack from rapid shot makes less of a difference and the magic bow/arrow stacking makes more of a difference. Dissallowing the stacking makes the archer's damage output similar to a defensively oriented (weapon and shield) fighter who isn't using power attack and doesn't whirlwind attack/great cleave. Allowing the stacking makes the archer compete with a damage oriented (two handed weapon wielding) fighter who isn't using power attack and doesn't whirlwind attack/great cleave.

These figures will also be more to the advantage of the melee fighter at high levels if your group plays with high statistics as the characters will tend to have higher strengths than shown here. In that case, archers will probably do less damage than defensively oriented fighters (at high levels) unless you allow stacking.
 

Cloudgatherer

First Post
Those aren't great examples.

Under this version of the rules, an archer with +4 bow and +4 arrows with a Dex of 22 will have the same attack routine as a fighter with a +4 greatsword with 22 Str (before Rapid Shot). The equipment (bows and arrows for archer, greatsword for fighter) will cost the same amount, probably less for the archer since he can most likely get GMW cast on his arrows for him.

The archer can still gain some stacking benefits in his favor. For instance, the bow can have flaming and he can fire holy arrows. He now fires flaming holy arrows. After playing an entire campaign for a year, not once has anyone in the party made magic arrows, there is simply no need with a spellcaster around. And it is not like they have to do it in battle, GMW lasts hours.
 

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