flanking

[Mystern]

so this question came up in my group recently,
when are you considered flanking? many people i ask say that you have to be next to a square to be flanking it but many others say that i just have to threaten a square to be considered flanking.
this is how i understand it. so let's say in the following diagram i'm using weapon "x" which has just a melee range. i threaten all the o squares right?
o o o
o x o
o o o

so if there is an opponent in one of those squares and i have an ally directly across from them i am flanking. in the next diagram i am using a reach weapon. so i threaten all the "o" squares and i do not threaten the "a" squares thus if an ally is in a "p" square i am flanking.
p a a p a a p
a o o o o o a
a o a a a o a
p o a x a o p
a o a a a o a
a o o o o o a
p a a p a a p

so what about the spiked chain? i threaten all the "o" squares so technically if there is an opponent in one of them i could potentailly flank them, right? and then it gets more complicated because my ally doesn't have to be right across from me.
so let's assume that all i need to be able to do is threaten a square to ptentially flank and my buddy "p" has a spiked chain too. so would we be flanking here? and would we flank both opponents between us?

p o o x

then what about being in a straight line? if i figure it correctly i can flank with "p" against all the "o" squares.

p p p p p p p
p o o o o o p
p o o o o o p
p o o x o o p
p o o o o o p
p o o o o o p
p p p p p p p

but what's more is i can flank like i just had a melee weapon.

p p p p p
p o o o p
p o x o p
p o o o p
p p p p p

and since it is possible to flank more than one opponent, well think of the possibilities.
but my dm says this is not correct but he can't figure out why.
any help?

 

[werk]

You need to threaten the foe, and be directly oppositional to your ally.

I think all of your examples are one square too far from the center, unless you are threatening 10' with melee.

Just because you have reach doesn't mean that the space you occupy increases, you are still, as a medium humanoid, just one 5' square. That's why positioning is more important.


(that's if I understand your diagrams correctly, which I probably don't)

 

[Mystern]

You need to threaten the foe, and be directly oppositional to your ally.

I think all of your examples are one square too far from the center, unless you are threatening 10' with melee.

Just because you have reach doesn't mean that the space you occupy increases, you are still, as a medium humanoid, just one 5' square. That's why positioning is more important.


(that's if I understand your diagrams correctly, which I probably don't)

yeah they can be a bit confusing. but a spiked chain has reach and can threaten the squares directly next to it so technically i have to be directly across from my ally to flank a creature, meaning on the grid there needs to be a straight line crossing opposite sides of the square my opponent occupies from a square i threaten. if it needs to be me, and not just a square i threaten then does that mean i can't flank with a reach weapon?

 

[Zurai]

The rules for flanking are really, really easy.

1. Both potential flankers must threaten at least one square occupied by the potential flankee.
2. You must be able to draw a straight line from the center of the two potential flankers' spaces through opposite sides of the potential flankee's space.

That's it. Two rules, one of which is a gimme (threatening the flankee).

 

[frankthedm]

[IMaGel]http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RulesComp_Gallery/110983.jpg[/IMaGel]Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

 

[Zurai]

Ah, OK, so not neccesarily the center of the base. That actually makes flanking even easier.

 

[blargney the second]

Check out the diagram on PHB 153. There's a hobgoblin with 10' reach that is particularly relevant to your question.

Edit: doh, ninjaed by frank.

 

[werk]

yeah they can be a bit confusing. but a spiked chain has reach and can threaten the squares directly next to it so technically i have to be directly across from my ally to flank a creature, meaning on the grid there needs to be a straight line crossing opposite sides of the square my opponent occupies from a square i threaten.

Yep.

if it needs to be me, and not just a square i threaten then does that mean i can't flank with a reach weapon?

You can flank, and the area you threaten is increased...basically it's the same with a reach weapon as with normal melee, draw a line from you to your ally and it has to pass through opposing sides of the foe.

So for your first question: "when are you considered flanking? many people i ask say that you have to be next to a square to be flanking it but many others say that i just have to threaten a square to be considered flanking." ...You do not need to be adjacent, you just need to threaten the enemy and be able to draw a strait line from your square(s) through opposing sides of the foe's square(s) and into the square(s) of an ally that is also threatening the foe...

Yes, a spiked chains lets you threaten at reach and adjacent, so you gain a measure of flexiblity over 'normal' weapons...it does cost a feat after all.

 

[Mystern]

so then i'm correct that with a spicked chani i have and a spiked chain my buddy has we could potentially flank two oponnents between us at the same time. but my diagram should be adjusted accordingly
"x" = me
"o" = threatened square
"p" = potential ally flanking position.
'a' = non flanking ally square

p a a p a a p
a o o o o o a
a o o o o o a
p o o x o o p
a o o o o o a
a o o o o o a
p a a p a a p

is this correct?

edit. according to the picture from phb my diagram should look like this

p p p p p p p
p o o o o o p
p o o o o o p
p o o x o o p
p o o o o o p
p o o o o o p
p p p p p p p

i think

 

[Mistwell]

Check out the diagram on PHB 153. There's a hobgoblin with 10' reach that is particularly relevant to your question.

Edit: doh, ninjaed by frank.

Ah Frank. We love him because his chart-creating fu is strong, which makes up for him thinking everything in the game is broken and overpowered