Flat-footed, surprise and initative.

[Friend of the Dork]

Hey

These issues have come up repeatedly in my and others' games: When is someone flat-footed, and why?

By RAW everyone is flat-footed until they act in a round. This does not correlate with the common definition of flat-footed (not to be confused with flat feet), which is to be surprised, unable to react.

Now if there is a combat where everyone are aware of the enemy and ready to fight before the first attack is made, should they still be flat-footed when initiative is rolled?

Is it possible to start a combat before enemies are able to attack one another? Say, when looking through a glass door about to open, or waiting for an elevator to come up?

What happens if both the enemies and the party are using Ready actions with the same trigger? What if both sides are using Delay action instead?

As you can see it is not as clear cut as you might think. There are 2 situations that ARE clear:

1. Enemy and party detects one another at the same time: Neither side is aware before combat, initative is rolled and everyone is flat-footed until their turn comes up.

2. One side is aware and ambushes the other, Only the victims are all flat-footed both in the surprise round as well as the 1st ordinary round until they can act.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

RAW, you're flatfooted till your initiative comes up, even if both sides are aware of each other. Think quick draw wild west movies.

Also RAW, readying is something you can only do in the context of initiative already being rolled. It's not something you do before combat. The guy on the other side of the door saying, "I want to shoot an arrow as soon as the fighter opens up the door at the first enemy I see." ? The door opens, he rolls initiative. Doesn't matter he wanted to be ready with an attack, if the enemies react to the door opening faster than him, tough luck. If they're caught by surprise...then he gets a surprise round and the readied action is again an unnecessary mechanic.

You can houserule if you want, but you'll just be crippling the rogue.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

RAW, you're flatfooted till your initiative comes up, even if both sides are aware of each other. Think quick draw wild west movies.

Also RAW, readying is something you can only do in the context of initiative already being rolled. It's not something you do before combat. The guy on the other side of the door saying, "I want to shoot an arrow as soon as the fighter opens up the door at the first enemy I see." ? The door opens, he rolls initiative. Doesn't matter he wanted to be ready with an attack, if the enemies react to the door opening faster than him, tough luck. If they're caught by surprise...then he gets a surprise round and the readied action is again an unnecessary mechanic.

You can houserule if you want, but you'll just be crippling the rogue.

I realize that is RAW, but there is nothing preventing you from starting a combat is there? I've always allowed PCs to take actions out of combat and assume the same rules apply - for example drinking a potion is a standard action, but by the same rationaly used above you can't drink it until the DM tells you to roll initative.... So where in the rules does it say you can't ready an action outside combat?

Of course, characters can do much outside combat, I'd say that there are many more limitations in combat that out of it.

Your example with the fighter and the door is valid: It should be possible to do what he says outside of combat. If the enemy in the room is unaware of the party, the party is essentially acting in the surprise round: Fighter opens the door while the rogue readies a shot. Door opens, shot is made, and then the surprise round is over (the rogue acting after the fighter in the 1st round).

If the enemy is aware they might be ready themselves, in which case a normal initiative test is made. Now by RAW everyone are flat-footed but this seems unfair to my players. Will it nerf the Rogue alot to allow people their dex to AC in this case?

Because in a weird example the party might decide to fight one another beforehand, hitting each other with nonlethal attacks. Of course any DM worth his salt should strike down on such ridiculous metagame behavior, but the fact remains that they benefit from it by making sure none of them are flat-footed before the one on the last initiative opens the door.

I'm a bit undecided so far - I don't mind the Rogue having the benefit of sneak attack, and having the AC 34 lvl 5 fighter in my group be somewhat hittable in the first round is not bad for balance.

Any other views?

 

[tylermalan]

I'm not sure why readying an action is something that can only be accomplished within the context of initiative...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Because when you ready an action, it occurs at a certain initiative count -- that of the creature/thing that triggered it -- and sets your initiative to that count, to act in future rounds just before the trigger.

It can only exist in the context of initiative. The same is not true for drinking potions and the like. Yes, that's still a standard action, you can only do it once per 6 seconds (round), etc... but the actual exact timing isn't crucial.

EDIT: Perhaps 3E was more explicit about this than PF, I don't know. But look where the rules are for readying and under what heading in 3E: Special Initiative Actions
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Because when you ready an action, it occurs at a certain initiative count -- that of the creature/thing that triggered it -- and sets your initiative to that count, to act in future rounds just before the trigger.

It can only exist in the context of initiative. The same is not true for drinking potions and the like. Yes, that's still a standard action, you can only do it once per 6 seconds (round), etc... but the actual exact timing isn't crucial.

EDIT: Perhaps 3E was more explicit about this than PF, I don't know. But look where the rules are for readying and under what heading in 3E: Special Initiative Actions
Special Initiative Actions :: d20srd.org

Your link is almost identical to the rules in PF SRD, and it does not explicitly prevent you from preparing to act outside initiative, even if it's under the header "Special Initiative Actions." Of course their effect on initiative can only happen in combat, but who's to say you can't prepare to anything at a specific trigger when it's not combat? If a PF character drops a coin from one hand, someone else not ready themselves to catch it in flight?

"Initiative" is really about who reacts quicker - if one side is forewarned and preparing for something a normal initiative roll is simply not useful. Surprise rules works, but are not always applicable.

Are these situations so normal that Rogues will suffer?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Your link is almost identical to the rules in PF SRD, and it does not explicitly prevent you from preparing to act outside initiative, even if it's under the header "Special Initiative Actions." Of course their effect on initiative can only happen in combat, but who's to say you can't prepare to anything at a specific trigger when it's not combat? If a PF character drops a coin from one hand, someone else not ready themselves to catch it in flight?

"Initiative" is really about who reacts quicker - if one side is forewarned and preparing for something a normal initiative roll is simply not useful. Surprise rules works, but are not always applicable.

You can "ready" whatever you want just fine out of initiative. You want to catch your friend's flipped coin, sure. But as soon as conflict is involved, you're infringing on initiative's job.

If you're preparing to do some action against a foe but do not manage to get surprise, you roll initiative. It's real great that you had something planned out, but you failed to get the drop on him, so whether or not you get to actually get to enact your little plan before he can do something about it is determined by your roll.

I really don't know what else I can say to explain this...that's the entire purpose of initiative.

You can draw your spear and make stabby motions with it all you want out of combat (time still passes, of course). But you want to ready to draw your spear (quickdraw feat) and stab someone as he rushes at you when you're staring straight at each other? WIN INITIATIVE. Otherwise, before you know what hit you, or possibly even in the middle of attempting your planned action but before you can complete it the other guy is on you. Again, that's what initiative is.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

When someone (outside of combat) says that they get ready for some eventuality, I give them a +2 circumstance bonus to their initiative check if that eventuality comes to pass.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

You can "ready" whatever you want just fine out of initiative. You want to catch your friend's flipped coin, sure. But as soon as conflict is involved, you're infringing on initiative's job.

If you're preparing to do some action against a foe but do not manage to get surprise, you roll initiative. It's real great that you had something planned out, but you failed to get the drop on him, so whether or not you get to actually get to enact your little plan before he can do something about it is determined by your roll.

I really don't know what else I can say to explain this...that's the entire purpose of initiative.

You can draw your spear and make stabby motions with it all you want out of combat (time still passes, of course). But you want to ready to draw your spear (quickdraw feat) and stab someone as he rushes at you when you're staring straight at each other? WIN INITIATIVE. Otherwise, before you know what hit you, or possibly even in the middle of attempting your planned action but before you can complete it the other guy is on you. Again, that's what initiative is.

I'm not sure you understand the issue at hand. I'm not debating Initiative's purpose. In any contest of reaction there is no better "stat" to use. The issue is simply that people who should be able to defend themselves (when the enemy does not get the "drop on", i.e. surprise), suddenly lose almost all ability to evade attacks.

I'm talking about situations were they know you're there, they know you're coming, but since no one is able to actually attack one another for a little while, the DM does not bother with rolling initiative.


Here's another example:
Two parties walk in an open area (plains). They spot each other at a long distance, and identify each other as enemies 800' away. Now the DM might not bother with rolling initiative as the party wants to start moving towards the enemy. When they are within say 100' the party wants to attack with ranged weapons. Now, if we roll initiative the enemy is suddenly flat-footed?

So should the DM have asked for initiative rolls already? When does is combat supposed to begin anyway? As soon as enemies detect each other? As soon as any character wants to make an attack roll? Or just cast a spell?

When someone (outside of combat) says that they get ready for some eventuality, I give them a +2 circumstance bonus to their initiative check if that eventuality comes to pass.

Not a bad habit, I sometimes use it for Perception checks for example. But to be honest if it is really an ambush +2 is a little low, +10 would be more fitting. If it's just "I keep an eye on the rear left passageway" then +2 is quite alright, and maybe a bonus to perception to boot.

 

[tylermalan]

If you're preparing to do some action against a foe but do not manage to get surprise, you roll initiative. It's real great that you had something planned out, but you failed to get the drop on him, so whether or not you get to actually get to enact your little plan before he can do something about it is determined by your roll.

I really don't know what else I can say to explain this...that's the entire purpose of initiative.

I definitely understand what you're saying. And, I guess (though I haven't looked it up), RAW agrees with you.

But my problem with the above is the following:

Lets say you're in combat. Initiative has been rolled, and your turn comes up. You use your turn to ready an action. You point your loaded crossbow at the closed door and say that you will fire if the door opens. At some point before your turn comes up again, the door opens and BOOM, you fire! There is no "chance" that your readied action might not happen. It always happens under the context of the trigger... because you were READY.

What you're saying is that outside of combat, the FIRST thing you do is check for surprise. Then, even if I was READY to catch the flipped coin (I'm in a ready stance, my hand is out and ready, I'm staring at the coin, I'm focused, etc), if my friend "gets surprise" on me then this somehow bypasses the fact that I was ready to catch it. He flips the coin, and I DON'T catch it, because I could not possibly have been ready since initiative had not been rolled yet.

Is this really how it is supposed to work via RAW?