Flat-Footed

[kitcik]

I don't think he's a mod, Water Bob. He's a community supporter -I think that means he kicks $3 a month to the site for some cool features, and to support the site (also a good thing).

Features? meh

But the enjoyment I get from the site is way more than $0.10 per day worth!

 

[Arrowhawk]

Let's go. (Of note: I'm not sure why you're text sizes are randomly in your post, or why they're messing with my text size outside of your quotes, but I really don't feel like messing with it at the moment [or probably later on]).

I copied the quote from a PDF format. It came out small and I didn't care that I over sized it. But it resulted in my later text being shrunk so I had to manually resize that as well.

The game is dictating that the character takes the penalties, not you. They are using "you" in place of "your character".

That stands to reason. But the game, at least by the RAW, and not the clarificaiton, was talking about the lower of an init result which is not something your character would do. Like when it says you roll your ability scores. YOU, the person don't have abilities scores...but your character does. My construction of the inartful use of "you" by WotC involves looking at what a character would do versus a player. So in the original text of Delay, they change context just like they do when they talk about ability scores. Both are, imo, poor examples of how one should write rules for a game.

I should hope we can both agree that WotC does a lousy job of being consistent with whether it meams you the person or you the player. If you look at PHB, there are many many instances when the game says "your charcter" instead of just "you." Clearly there are some instances where they feel it is necessary to specify, some where they think it's obviosu, and a whole lot of instances where they don't seem to think it matters.

It's like they use different contexts in different areas of the book

Yes, no, and they don't seem to think the context is even an issue.

I'm yet to see you demonstrate your point.

I think I made above.

The combat section gives penalties or actions that your character takes. Delay is within the combat section. When the SRD says about Delay, "you take no action" do you mean that you, out of character, take no actions? You cannot do anything as a player? No, it is specifically referencing the character. To that end, if it is referencing the character, there is no reason to believe that the character acts out of initiative differently than normal

1. See my stuff about ability scorse above. WotC has no qualms about referring to you the player and you the character in the same sentence you using the same "you."

2. I actually had a discussion about this with the other DM last night. Surpised to find out, he said I was being too literal with the reading. His approach was to ignore the "literal" reading and constuct what he believed was their intended meaning. In essence, he would not give WotC the benefit of the doubt that WotC could accurately describe what it meant. Given how Ready is written and how a lot of other things don't make sense...as written. I can see his point.

But the story ain't over. When I explained to him something you disagreed with below....he changed his opinion. He said the stronger argument is that it is far more likely that the game would not want to give you the option of both delaying your action AND avoiding being FF. He and I both agree that the game has gone to such lengts to impose this FF state on everyone, it would be nonsensical for them to let people so easily slip out of it.

3. Even the new reading of "put off your turn" is ambiguous. Characters don't know whose turn it is. Characters act. Do you think two boxers in a ring know whose turn it is? Maybe that's a bad example, because they wouldn't know what round it was if not for the lady carrying the sign . But seriously, when we talk of turns, AC, Action Types, 5-foot step, these are metagame concepts. Do you even know what your Strength is without referencing it based on how much you can lift? What about your Dex modifier? Or your Charisma? Do you know what your wife's Charisma is? Have you ever seen a group of players have an internal discussion about who has the highest skill rank in a skill before the party attempts to use the skill? Metagaming.

Let's get back to the heart of the matter...being FF. Let's be honest, even if Water Bob had not quoted the WotC FAQ, does anyone really think the Immediate Action would have been a legitimate way to avoid being FF? No. I used the example to point out that the RAW is poorly written in many cases. This applies to the FF state where people want to read the "may act" and your character's decision to Delay as being a point at which he "may act." WotC said, we don't care what the RAW says, an IA doesn't stop being FF. What does that tell you James? If the FF rule were written accurately, they wouldn't need to say that would they? So neither acting nor having the option to act is really the determining factor with being FF. You can still take a "nonaction" activity and be flat footed. In fact, you can elect to fail your Ride DC check, a decision to act/non act, and still be flat footed, wouldn't you agree?

Given WotC's statement on an IA and the Delay action, I would still give the most weight to whether it is your "turn/initiative" as the deciding factor. I would argue, or I would give more weight to the argument that a Delay is the changing of your turn...you "put off your turn" as such, you remain FF until you take your turn. Would it totally blow me away if WotC said Delaying was intended to be a valid way to avoid the FF flag? No...but it would rank up there with the implementation of the "No Dex Bonus" as things that don't make a lot of game design sense.

But as I stated above, I'm not so wedded to the idea that a Delay is strictly a metagame decision. It's not unreasonable for a person to come to the conclusion, given the rewording and the introduction of this "nonaction" activity, that Delay is not metagaming and that it removes the FF status. Though one doesn't necessarily determine the other.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Just, for the record, @"Water Bob", Ready is a Standard action.

 

[Arrowhawk]

IMHO, this is not a "change" but simply a clarification of what seemingly 99% of us agreed on anyway based on our reading of the original write-up. But that is neither here nor there, just an opinion.

You have humble opinions?

In most cases, I would agree with you that these articles are generally meant as clarifications, not rule changes. And it's unlikely that he specifically intended to change the rule. But then he defined this thing called a "nonaction" activity as a specific type of activity and neither the term nor the category has been defined in the original rules, so he's creating rules. He defined Delay as a "nonaction" instead of saying you "take no action." Technically that is a change to the rule. Whether it has a material effect is not clear.

The other thing to remember is that often when one clarifies something, you are clarifying it with respect to one thing or another, or put it terms that convey a different aspect of the rule. As such, rewording your definition can introduce amibiguity into things that were previous unambiguous...like using pronouns without adequately identifying the subject. It's important to note that Skip does not talk about how Delay affects being FF, so the conclusion is that this was not something he was attempting to clarify....or he would have stated it outright, like someone did with Immediate Action.

It's unforunate there isn't a FAQ on this very question. Anyone know Skips email?

 

[irdeggman]

It's unforunate there isn't a FAQ on this very question. Anyone know Skips email?

Skip stopped doing Sage Advice about 3 years (maybe a little less) before Dungeon Mag folded - Andy Collins was the last Sage if I recall correctly.

 

[irdeggman]

Let's get back to the heart of the matter...being FF. Let's be honest, even if Water Bob had not quoted the WotC FAQ, does anyone really think the Immediate Action would have been a legitimate way to avoid being FF? No.

Well other than the fact that you can't take an immediate action if you are flat-footed taking one to avoid being flat-footed makes no sense (and is of course against the rules)

But as I stated above, I'm not so wedded to the idea that a Delay is strictly a metagame decision. It's not unreasonable for a person to come to the conclusion, given the rewording and the introduction of this "nonaction" activity,

I get from your posts that you still don't think that "no action" and "not an action" were never defined in the rules?

I pointed out where earlier

http://www.enworld.org/forum/5627883-post181.html

But also on pg 139 of the PHB defines not an action

Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not
even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all
to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else.
For instance, using the Use Magic Device skill (page 85) while
trying to activate a device is not an action, it is part of the standard
action to activate a magic item.

See also Rules Compendium pg 7

Now you could get real literal and say that "no action" and "not an action" aren't the same thing, but I think the evidence in the books (and FAQ) point to the opposite conclusion.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Well, I'm glad the language has gotten a bit more polite, but I feel the general tone of this thread is "I'm right, you're wrong!"

First thing's first: RAW is an interpretation. This means, among other things, that what one gets from it is an opinion. An opinion, because it is not actual fact, cannot be right or wrong. Much of what has gone down in this thread is argumentative rabble that, even with supporting evidence of the opinion, is still only an opinion. An opinion or belief on its own is not harmful. If you are pained by an external thing, it is not the thing that disturbs you, but your judgment about it. I'm under the impression many people in this thread are being judgmental, specifically with regards to not only others' opinions and thought, but the person's own opinions about himself and his work. I also believe English really fails for not having a gender-neutral personal pronoun to use in these kinds of discussions. "It" is inappropriate for use when describing a person in the vast majority of cases.

Having said that, I'd like to continue discussion of Flat-Footed and Delay by saying that, by my interpretation of RAW, a Delay Action is most definitely an Action, thus it qualifies for negating FF. In essence, choosing to act later is an act in and of itself.

In regards to the topic of Flat-Footed needing a rework, I can make arguments in favor of different parts. As is, it does make things simple by denying one's full Dex bonus. In a way, it could be more complex to say it's a flat penalty due to having to discuss and agree upon a certain specific penalty. Simply denying the Dex bonus makes things, well, simple. The game is already crunchy enough as-is, so little bits of help here and there can and do tend to make it more fun. My personal take is I'd leave it where it is.

On the topic of the guy in the alleyway, the issue at heart is "When is rolling Initiative appropriate?"

I'll edit in my thoughts on that once I've reread the encounter and the relevant discussion on it.

 

[Arrowhawk]

Well other than the fact that you can't take an immediate action if you are flat-footed taking one to avoid being flat-footed makes no sense (and is of course against the rules)

Right. I didn't see the last sentence under the Immediate Action definition. However...

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

​

There is no rule that says you can't speak when flat-footed. Your character has a chance to speak ..before his or her turn. Therefore before he has had a chance to act. Under the logic employed by people who are posting, speaking would remove the FF status.

"Hey, Orc about to attack me!" ....weird...I saw the orc...warned my teamates about him...and yet...I was totally unprepared for the attack.

Moving on....

I get from your posts that you still don't think that "no action" and "not an action" were never defined in the rules?

I'll simply quote you the action types in d20Srd....again:

There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, free actions, swift actions, and immediate actions.

​

I will again point out that "no action" or "nonaction" does not exist as an action "type." Yes, the rules defined things that are not considered actions...like staying in the saddle on a DC check...or blinking your eyes. But that is different than defining a category of actions as "No Action."

I'll try saying this to you again: A category of "Things That Are Not Weapons" is not a category of weapons...it is a categorization of things that are not weapons. Is this really what we are discussing here?

If Skip wants to go and create some new category called "nonaction" activities, more power to him.

EDIT:

Let me ask you irdeg, if I wanted to give players examples of things that should not be counted as actions? How else would I do it without creating Header and adding a table of examples were I listed things that were not considered actions? I'm really curious how you expect the rules to identify things that need not be tracked and allow you to index that information later, without giving it a label?

 

[irdeggman]

Right. I didn't see the last sentence under the Immediate Action definition. However...

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

​

There is no rule that says you can't speak when flat-footed. Your character has a chance to speak ..before his or her turn. Therefore before he has had a chance to act. Under the logic employed by people who are posting, speaking would remove the FF status.

"Hey, Orc about to attack me!" ....weird...I saw the orc...warned my teamates about him...and yet...I was totally unprepared for the attack.

Now this is a good one.

Nothing actually stops this, but how we play is that until it is your turn (either in surprise round or acual round) you can't speak.

Again, this does require interpretation of the rules - or more precisely (as you and others have pointed out) things not written down.

 

[Greenfield]

A free action that you can take when it isn't your turn is now called an Immediate Action, a phrase that wasn't used when the PHB was first published.

And since you can't take an Immediate Action when you're flat footed, the idea of taking the "speak" action to break your own flat-footed status falls apart.

In short, I'm casting Dispel BS on it.