seregil
First Post
EDIT: Did you ever go back to a post you wrote and say 'Wha?!? I actually wrote this?', well this is mine. This long post can be summed up as follows:
2 fighters of the same level, all else being equal, should have a 50% chance of winning against the other if all they do is stand and swing at each other. Meaning a 50% chance of hitting etc. This is my basic premise.
Therefore, if BAB goes up, so should a defensive bonus so that the chances of hitting stay the same at all levels.
If Hit points go up, then so should damage so that battle don't last hours.
For me, Offensive scaling is linked to defensive scaling and Hit points are linked to damage.
Also, progress should not be linear as you learn faster in the beginning and then you slow down. However, as you master a skill, you can start doing thing that a simple + can't represent, hence more 'special manoeuvres' at higher levels.
There! Several paragraphs summed up in a few lines. I really was zoned out when I wrote this post.
**warning, this post is long. It is my musings on the base mechanics of combat for DND 5E. Forgive me if I sound pedantic, I'm trying to ensure i am well understood and that I do not overlook anything**
I have read a lot about flattening the math in the next edition. Specifically, this is supposed to mean that the power level goes up much slower than, say, 3rd edition. I LIKE the idea that a level 1 fighter is still dangerous to a level 20 fighter. IRL, ANYBODY with a weapon is to be considered a threat, even if you are confident of winning.
The question becomes how flat.
I think the yardstick that would be useful to start with is the combat mechanics since they are, at their base, quite simple. Also, in Warhammer 40K, there is a concept called MEQ, meaning Marine Equivalent. It is used to compare some type of units to the standard Space Marine (4 in all stats, save 3+).
Here. I think we should use F1EQ (1st level fighter equivalent).
NOTE: I'm talking about the automatic 'every fighter gets them' bonuses. The feats, skills, powers et al would modify all this to make each character unique will not be taken into consideration.
Assumptions for F1EQ:
All stats are 12, giving a +1 bonus for each.
BAB is +1 for fighter at level 1 (most other classes would be +0 I assume)
No armour (AC 10 + 1 dex bonus= AC11).
Long sword (1d8 damage)
Now then, if two F1EQ fight it out, they have 55% chance to hit (The +1 STR bonus cancels the +1 Dex bonus) meaning that they need a 10 or better to hit.
Now, three questions need to be answered:
Now then, how does this affect the speed at which BAB goes up? Well, it should mean that the speed changes. Specifically, it slows down.
Ok.
What is the maximum level? Well, should this not depends on what the maximum DEFENSE can be?
From what I have seen, there seems to be a desire to not scale defence with level. I.E. Not give 'free' AC for levels. This makes sense to me but there is a problem. The level 20 fighter SHOULD be harder to hit than a level 1 fighter. He is more agile, has vastly more experience and knows how to avoid his and angle his armour more.
How? (again ignoring powers/feats/etc)
I can only see a bonus to AC based on level. All other bonuses should be customizable. For example, I can choose to put an extra stat point in DEX if I choose. In effect, I am making my fighter more defensive by choice.
Ok, but I still think that all else being equal, two plain vanilla level 20 fighters facing each other should have essentially the same chances as two level 1 fighters. Their bonuses should cancel out. This would require that DEFENSIVE bonuses scale at the same speed as OFFENSIVE bonuses.
Now then, since DEFENSIVE bonuses should scale the same way as OFFENSIVE bonuses, how high should they go?
Well, how much of a threat do you want your F1EQ to be to the 20th level fighter?
A significant threat? Then the max bonus should be +5 over 20 levels, giving the F20EQ a base AC of 16 (10 base, +1 dex, +5 Def. bonus). The F1EQ would now hit him on a 15 or better (30 % chance).
A minor threat (my personal choice)? Then max bonus = +9, giving the F20EQ a base AC of 20 (10 base, +1 dex, +9 Def. bonus). The F1EQ would now hit on a 19 or better (10% chance).
This is where damage comes in.
Well, even if the F1EQ hits, how much DAMAGE should he do? With a long sword (average damage of 5.5), a F1EQ should kill a F1EQ with two blows. So how many hits should he have to do to kill the F20EQ?
Again, how much of a threat do you want him to be?
Significant? Then max hit point of a F20EQ should be around 55, requiring 10-11 hits to kill the F20EQ. The F20EQ will win, but he will lose about 10% of his HP with every hit, making him worry quite a lot.
Minor (my choice)? Then the max hit points of a F20EQ should be around 110 or so. He would lose about 5% with every hit. Not fun, but certainly minor.
Again, to maintain the same threat level the whole way through, you need to scale damage with hit points. And, from what I have read, this is what they seem to want to do.
Therefore, if my analysis holds, BAB and Def. Bonus scale together to ensure the % of hits remains the same for same level fighters and HP/W scaling together to ensure that the damage for same level fighters is always significant.
So, what rate do you want?
Here, we enter to my personal preferences. I get REALLY annoyed when high level characters walk all over the City Guard. It BUGS me. While I accept that a combat veteran (F20EQ) should eat a rank-and-file guardsman (a F1EQ) for lunch, the entire SQUAD of guardsman should be a worry for the veteran even if he should win.
Therefore, I would suggest a scaling for BAB/AC like this:
Levels 1-10: +1 per odd level
Levels 11-20: +1 at 11,15,17,20
Total BAB/AC bonus is +9, as I wanted giving the F1EQ a 10% chance of hitting a F20EQ.
HP/W: Here, I'm a bit less certain. However, I like the simplicity of the metric system, so I would say that the maximum HO for a F1EQ (with no bonuses) should be 10 and the max HP for a F20EQ should be 100HP. So the F20EQ should have 10D10 hit points (plus bonuses). Then I would work the weapon damage around that. This is more complicate because of the many weapons, the different damage, etc.
Ok, I'm done rambling. Did I make any sense?
2 fighters of the same level, all else being equal, should have a 50% chance of winning against the other if all they do is stand and swing at each other. Meaning a 50% chance of hitting etc. This is my basic premise.
Therefore, if BAB goes up, so should a defensive bonus so that the chances of hitting stay the same at all levels.
If Hit points go up, then so should damage so that battle don't last hours.
For me, Offensive scaling is linked to defensive scaling and Hit points are linked to damage.
Also, progress should not be linear as you learn faster in the beginning and then you slow down. However, as you master a skill, you can start doing thing that a simple + can't represent, hence more 'special manoeuvres' at higher levels.
There! Several paragraphs summed up in a few lines. I really was zoned out when I wrote this post.
**warning, this post is long. It is my musings on the base mechanics of combat for DND 5E. Forgive me if I sound pedantic, I'm trying to ensure i am well understood and that I do not overlook anything**
I have read a lot about flattening the math in the next edition. Specifically, this is supposed to mean that the power level goes up much slower than, say, 3rd edition. I LIKE the idea that a level 1 fighter is still dangerous to a level 20 fighter. IRL, ANYBODY with a weapon is to be considered a threat, even if you are confident of winning.
The question becomes how flat.
I think the yardstick that would be useful to start with is the combat mechanics since they are, at their base, quite simple. Also, in Warhammer 40K, there is a concept called MEQ, meaning Marine Equivalent. It is used to compare some type of units to the standard Space Marine (4 in all stats, save 3+).
Here. I think we should use F1EQ (1st level fighter equivalent).
NOTE: I'm talking about the automatic 'every fighter gets them' bonuses. The feats, skills, powers et al would modify all this to make each character unique will not be taken into consideration.
Assumptions for F1EQ:
All stats are 12, giving a +1 bonus for each.
BAB is +1 for fighter at level 1 (most other classes would be +0 I assume)
No armour (AC 10 + 1 dex bonus= AC11).
Long sword (1d8 damage)
Now then, if two F1EQ fight it out, they have 55% chance to hit (The +1 STR bonus cancels the +1 Dex bonus) meaning that they need a 10 or better to hit.
Now, three questions need to be answered:
- Does it go up in a linear fashion?
- How fast does the BAB go up?
- How does defense relate to this?
Now then, how does this affect the speed at which BAB goes up? Well, it should mean that the speed changes. Specifically, it slows down.
Ok.
What is the maximum level? Well, should this not depends on what the maximum DEFENSE can be?
From what I have seen, there seems to be a desire to not scale defence with level. I.E. Not give 'free' AC for levels. This makes sense to me but there is a problem. The level 20 fighter SHOULD be harder to hit than a level 1 fighter. He is more agile, has vastly more experience and knows how to avoid his and angle his armour more.
How? (again ignoring powers/feats/etc)
I can only see a bonus to AC based on level. All other bonuses should be customizable. For example, I can choose to put an extra stat point in DEX if I choose. In effect, I am making my fighter more defensive by choice.
Ok, but I still think that all else being equal, two plain vanilla level 20 fighters facing each other should have essentially the same chances as two level 1 fighters. Their bonuses should cancel out. This would require that DEFENSIVE bonuses scale at the same speed as OFFENSIVE bonuses.
Now then, since DEFENSIVE bonuses should scale the same way as OFFENSIVE bonuses, how high should they go?
Well, how much of a threat do you want your F1EQ to be to the 20th level fighter?
A significant threat? Then the max bonus should be +5 over 20 levels, giving the F20EQ a base AC of 16 (10 base, +1 dex, +5 Def. bonus). The F1EQ would now hit him on a 15 or better (30 % chance).
A minor threat (my personal choice)? Then max bonus = +9, giving the F20EQ a base AC of 20 (10 base, +1 dex, +9 Def. bonus). The F1EQ would now hit on a 19 or better (10% chance).
This is where damage comes in.
Well, even if the F1EQ hits, how much DAMAGE should he do? With a long sword (average damage of 5.5), a F1EQ should kill a F1EQ with two blows. So how many hits should he have to do to kill the F20EQ?
Again, how much of a threat do you want him to be?
Significant? Then max hit point of a F20EQ should be around 55, requiring 10-11 hits to kill the F20EQ. The F20EQ will win, but he will lose about 10% of his HP with every hit, making him worry quite a lot.
Minor (my choice)? Then the max hit points of a F20EQ should be around 110 or so. He would lose about 5% with every hit. Not fun, but certainly minor.
Again, to maintain the same threat level the whole way through, you need to scale damage with hit points. And, from what I have read, this is what they seem to want to do.
Therefore, if my analysis holds, BAB and Def. Bonus scale together to ensure the % of hits remains the same for same level fighters and HP/W scaling together to ensure that the damage for same level fighters is always significant.
So, what rate do you want?
Here, we enter to my personal preferences. I get REALLY annoyed when high level characters walk all over the City Guard. It BUGS me. While I accept that a combat veteran (F20EQ) should eat a rank-and-file guardsman (a F1EQ) for lunch, the entire SQUAD of guardsman should be a worry for the veteran even if he should win.
Therefore, I would suggest a scaling for BAB/AC like this:
Levels 1-10: +1 per odd level
Levels 11-20: +1 at 11,15,17,20
Total BAB/AC bonus is +9, as I wanted giving the F1EQ a 10% chance of hitting a F20EQ.
HP/W: Here, I'm a bit less certain. However, I like the simplicity of the metric system, so I would say that the maximum HO for a F1EQ (with no bonuses) should be 10 and the max HP for a F20EQ should be 100HP. So the F20EQ should have 10D10 hit points (plus bonuses). Then I would work the weapon damage around that. This is more complicate because of the many weapons, the different damage, etc.
Ok, I'm done rambling. Did I make any sense?
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