Pathfinder 1E Fly Skill and things that let you Fly

[SmuggleNutz]

The description of the Fly Skill in the PF Core Rules includes the following lines:

You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability). (Core Rules Pg 96)

Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. (Core Rules Pg 96)​

We are having a discussion in our local group on the following question:

Our Cleric has the Travel domain, which gives him access to the spell Fly every day, thereby seeming to satisfy the requirement of possessing "a reliable means of flying every day." The Fly spell grants a fly speed, thereby seeming to satisfy the requirement of being a "creature with a fly speed."

Does the Cleric treat the Fly Skill as a Class Skill while under the effects of a Fly spell?

Things that have already come up:

One argument attempted to say that flying is different for "creatures" than it is for PC's, equating creatures with monsters. This was shot down by quoting the PF definition of "creature:" A creature is an active participant in the story or world. This includes PCs, NPCs, and monsters. (Core Rules pg 11)

An attempt is being made to argue that "Creatures with a fly speed.." (the Skill) is not the same as "The subject can fly at a speed of..." (the Fly spell).

Thoughts and opinions?

Thanks.

 

[Mr.E_Danger]

It seems unreasonable that you cannot put ranks in it without having an ability to fly. If you look at the Druid class, fly is a class skill. Until they gain wildshape at lvl four, by RAW he wouldn't be able to put ranks in fly.

No group i've played in followed the RAW rule. To me, Fly is a skill like any other that you can put ranks into. The moment you have the ability to fly or glide, you can use that skill. Otherwise, if you can't put ranks into fly and then come across a scroll of fly or a flying carpet, then you'd be screwed when trying to maneuver. That seems unreasonable.

 

[carrot]

The cleric certainly has the access to the skill through use of the spell.
As for the class skill, I think this comes down to permanence. It would not be a class skill, because he cannot fly all the time (unless he has wings or a permanent fly spell) and thus as a "creature" he doesn't have a fly speed. The spell only grants a temporary fly speed and not a permanent one.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The description of the Fly Skill in the PF Core Rules includes the following lines:

You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability). (Core Rules Pg 96)

Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. (Core Rules Pg 96)​

We are having a discussion in our local group on the following question:

Our Cleric has the Travel domain, which gives him access to the spell Fly every day, thereby seeming to satisfy the requirement of possessing "a reliable means of flying every day." The Fly spell grants a fly speed, thereby seeming to satisfy the requirement of being a "creature with a fly speed."

Does the Cleric treat the Fly Skill as a Class Skill while under the effects of a Fly spell?

Things that have already come up:

One argument attempted to say that flying is different for "creatures" than it is for PC's, equating creatures with monsters. This was shot down by quoting the PF definition of "creature:" A creature is an active participant in the story or world. This includes PCs, NPCs, and monsters. (Core Rules pg 11)

An attempt is being made to argue that "Creatures with a fly speed.." (the Skill) is not the same as "The subject can fly at a speed of..." (the Fly spell).

Thoughts and opinions?

Thanks.

I would say yes to the first and no to the second. I don't think the cleric can take Fly as a class skill. (This would render a flying cleric less agile than a flying wizard, who I believe can take Fly as a class skill, once they can reliably fly.)

Just my opinion.

 

[delericho]

Does the Cleric treat the Fly Skill as a Class Skill while under the effects of a Fly spell?

Things that have already come up:

One argument attempted to say that flying is different for "creatures" than it is for PC's, equating creatures with monsters. This was shot down by quoting the PF definition of "creature:" A creature is an active participant in the story or world. This includes PCs, NPCs, and monsters. (Core Rules pg 11)

An attempt is being made to argue that "Creatures with a fly speed.." (the Skill) is not the same as "The subject can fly at a speed of..." (the Fly spell).

Thoughts and opinions?

Technically, I think that last point is the key one: many creatures can climb, but few have a "climb speed". Many creatures can swim, but few have a "swim speed". And here, the spell allows the caster to fly, but doesn't grant a "fly speed" as such.

Still, in PF isn't the difference between a class skill and a non-class skill just a +3 bonus when you add your first rank? In which case, I would wonder whether it's really worth debating at any length...

It seems unreasonable that you cannot put ranks in it without having an ability to fly.

How so? How do you propose a character train in the Fly skill without the ability to fly? Isn't that like learning to drive by reading a book on the topic?

 

[Mr.E_Danger]

Delerecho. A character can learn how to do something in a variety of ways, whether that's practicing the skill during downtime, reading books on the subject, or even being trained by someone that has that skill. Perhaps the cleric asks the sorcerer in the party, who can fly, to help teach him the basics. Will it help him become a master flier? No. But will it help him understand how to maneuver or help prepare him for flight? Yes. I view it much like how a beginner surfer will practice standing on a surfboard on the beach before he goes to try it in the water.

 

[N'raac]

I'd say that, if the sorcerer is casting Fly on the cleric on a regular basis, the cleric can now reliably fly every day, and can take ranks in the fly skill. If he is simply telling him how one might attempt to maneuver while in flight, not so much. Your example of a beginner surfer involves practice with the surfboard itself, not simply being told how one should balance on that board.

 

[MarkB]

Delerecho. A character can learn how to do something in a variety of ways, whether that's practicing the skill during downtime, reading books on the subject, or even being trained by someone that has that skill. Perhaps the cleric asks the sorcerer in the party, who can fly, to help teach him the basics. Will it help him become a master flier? No. But will it help him understand how to maneuver or help prepare him for flight? Yes. I view it much like how a beginner surfer will practice standing on a surfboard on the beach before he goes to try it in the water.

And if a person were to practice on the beach every day for five years before finally going into the water, would he then be as good at surfing as his friends who've spent those five years actively surfing?

 

[SmuggleNutz]

OP here... I think we have hashed out a few things locally with help from what has been posted here.

First, some observations:

The Fly Skill is the only skill in Pathfinder (and maybe in all of 3.x) that can be used Untrained, AND that has a requirement that must be met before ranks can be added to it. Look it up. No other skill that can be used Untrained has an entry requirement.

The requirement to take ranks in the Fly Skill is to have either the natural ability to fly, OR a "reliable means of flying every day," and the examples given of "reliable" are by spell and by Wildshape.

The line in the Fly Skill that states: "Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill" appears in the section of the Skill under the heading Special. This section has a definition within the rules for Skills, which is:

Special: Any extra facts that apply to the skill, such as special effects deriving from its use or bonuses that certain characters receive because of class, feat choices, or race.


Our conclusion:

If we consider that the line "Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill" is a "special effect deriving from its use," it seems obvious that a creature that has a fly speed gains the +3 bonus as if Fly were a class skill, while they are flying. The creature has (presumably) already met the requirement for having a "reliable means of flying every day," otherwise we wouldn't even be at this point in the description of the Skill.

The way we have interpreted it is as follows:

A creature with a reliable way to fly every day treats the Fly Skill as a class skill while using that same reliable way to fly.

It allows a creature without Fly as a class skill to still benefit from the experience they gain using a reliable means of flying, whether by natural or magic means. Seems simple enough, and not bogged down in too much wordplay or rules lawyering.

Feedback welcome, and thanks to all who have shared their thoughts on this.

 

[Ebony Dragon]

A creature with a reliable way to fly every day treats the Fly Skill as a class skill while using that same reliable way to fly.

It allows a creature without Fly as a class skill to still benefit from the experience they gain using a reliable means of flying, whether by natural or magic means. Seems simple enough, and not bogged down in too much wordplay or rules lawyering.

I don't like it. Using spells (or magic items) to fly does not give you flight as a class skill, and hence the +3 bonus. All it does is let you start putting ranks into the fly skill from that point onwards.

Only creatures with actual fly speeds in their basic racial stat block (they have wings to fly or their race has some kind of innate magic flight power that is always active) get this "flight is treated as a class skill" perk.